Am I a "scab"?

quote:Originally posted by Knownowt

quote:Originally posted by hazel

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by St. Knickerless
However, I am also a realist, and I am pretty damn sure that this strike will be completely fruitless - there is no way on earth that this govt will give the pay raise that they are requesting, given the rises that the other public sector workers are getting over the next three years - i just feel like it is making noise for noises sake IYSWIM.

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just as a matter of interest...just say the strikes do have an impact, will you be forfeiting any benefits they may gain?

last time we striked (struck? ?) i don't think anything made me crosser than the people who were happy to come in and coin it in by doing overtime while the rest of us lost a days pay [V]

and ok, striking probably won't achieve everything you want, but sometimes it's about standing together and showing the work force can't be pushed around rather than being in it for the gain

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What should she do though? She's expressed her disapproval in a democratic way by voting against it. Does Union membership mean you have to go along with everything proposed by the Union? Of course not.

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The whole point of a union is to act collectively- even if you don't personally vote to strike, you've committed to act with the majority. If she's not prepared to do this, she ought to resign from the union.

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Fair point bout UNion members, but what about members of other Unions or non-members who also benefit from the payrise?

quote:Originally posted by hazel
Fair point bout UNion members, but what about members of other Unions or non-members who also benefit from the payrise?

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that is such a hard question ?

and other than my community utopia theory i don't know the answer

i suppose the only thing you could say that non union members don't get any benefits from the union so it's fair they don't have any inconveniences either. and if it so happens they benefit from a pay rise or something then thats just their good fortune. and maybe similarly if you're in another union and you chose to take a different course of action...at least you've paid your union dues and may help express protest another way

that makes absolutely no sense does it ?

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by Lumpy Golightly

I didn't vote for it, I'm in another union. What should I do if there's a pay award?

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that's an extremely good and intelligent question. so intelligent that i'm afraid i have no idea of an answer ?

in the community utopia all the non strikers, be it the non voters and other unions would contribute a day's pay too, to back up their striking colleagues. i am fully aware this will never happen either ?

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I don't have any problem with this. The NUT is striking because the majority thought it was in the interests of its members to do so. If other people happen incidentally to benefit as a result of that strike, good luck to them; they haven't broken any commitments by not striking.

quote:Originally posted by Knownowt
I don't have any problem with this. The NUT is striking because the majority thought it was in the interests of its members to do so. If other people happen incidentally to benefit as a result of that strike, good luck to them; they haven't broken any commitments by not striking.

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you make more sense than me ?

just going back to this point

quote:Originally posted by St. Knickerless
However, I am also a realist, and I am pretty damn sure that this strike will be completely fruitless - there is no way on earth that this govt will give the pay raise that they are requesting, given the rises that the other public sector workers are getting over the next three years - i just feel like it is making noise for noises sake IYSWIM.

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i think sometimes making noises for the sake of it is a valid thing to do. what are we supposed to do while brown and his contemporaries fuck public sector workers up the arse, while voting themselves 10% over three years? roll over and take it? i think not.

even if it achieves precisely nothing at least i can say 'well i tried', rather than just sit and bitch about how unjust things are

and who says it won't work? good job the tolpuddle martyrs didn't have this attitude ?

Why strike on a Thursday though? make it a Friday and then I can have a long weekend with the kids? (I mean because I will have to take a day off to look after them not because I am striking)

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

what are we supposed to do while brown and his contemporaries fuck public sector workers up the arse, while voting themselves 10% over three years? roll over and take it? i think not.

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I'm just trying to get the logistics of this right. Do we roll over and take it before or during Brown and his contemporaries us public sector workers up the arse? It has a bearing on which sheets I use ?

I'm all for having my voice heard, but I think striking should be a last resort which it doesn't appear to be. There are lots more things that can be done, but some unions seem to go straight to strike and lose a lot of sympathy in doing so

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity


i think sometimes making noises for the sake of it is a valid thing to do. what are we supposed to do while brown and his contemporaries fuck public sector workers up the arse, while voting themselves 10% over three years? roll over and take it? i think not.

even if it achieves precisely nothing at least i can say 'well i tried', rather than just sit and bitch about how unjust things are

and who says it won't work? good job the tolpuddle martyrs didn't have this attitude ?

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But two wrongs don't make a right - just because they do it doesn't mean we should. We're in a recession, we don't have the cash in the economy to afford high pay rises for the public sector - and you don't work in the public sector if that's what you expect, surely?

I'd never strike over pay - as someone else said, there are far more important issues to sort out in the public sector first.

quote:Originally posted by Smint
I'm all for having my voice heard, but I think striking should be a last resort which it doesn't appear to be. There are lots more things that can be done, but some unions seem to go straight to strike and lose a lot of sympathy in doing so

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but its a strike a majority of the union workers have agreed with on this occaision. and as they're teachers i'm assuming they're all intelligent and educated people

the unions can only propose the strike they can't make people agree with them

quote:Originally posted by Boop
We're in a recession, we don't have the cash in the economy to afford high pay rises for the public sector - and you don't work in the public sector if that's what you expect, surely?

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i will be honest in that i don't know what the teachers have been offered and what they're asking for [:I]

but if it's anything like the police then i don't think they're asking for heee-yoooge pay rises. just one that is equitable and at least matches the rate of inflation

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by Smint
I'm all for having my voice heard, but I think striking should be a last resort which it doesn't appear to be. There are lots more things that can be done, but some unions seem to go straight to strike and lose a lot of sympathy in doing so

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but its a strike a majority of the union workers have agreed with on this occaision. and as they're teachers i'm assuming they're all intelligent and educated people

the unions can only propose the strike they can't make people agree with them

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Agreed - which is why I joined the NASUWT rather than the NUT when I was teaching, and didn't join the PCS when I joined the Civil Service as I felt both unions were too eager to go on strike

I'd have to question whether I was in the right union if it meant me going against the majority vote to strike when I didn't want to

I did join PCS when I joined the Civil Service without doing a lot of research to be honest as I do believe the principle of having Trade Unions in general is a good thing but I left after coming to the conclusion that their main reason for calling a strike seems to be it's been a while since the last one (that and several other reasons). I was at school during the 80s and early 90s and I'm sure PCS have called more strikes in the last 5 years than the NUT did the whole time I was at school - and that's saying something.

I admit that I am, in many ways, not prepared to stand and be counted.
It sits uncomfortably with me in so many ways that I really do think that i need to change Unions, and am going to research others.


Why does it sit so uncomfortably? On a personal level I have five different exam groups that day. Yes, they will cope when I am not there, but I would rather be there. It impacts on other colleagues, and the school as a whole. The school closing, from the Union point of view, would be the ultimate aim - it would be great. However from the schools point of view it would be disastrous. It also feels "wrong", naughty somehow... like I am on the skive.

Yes, I would take any benefit that is gained as a result of the strike. However, I think teachers are alienated enough in the media without adding fuel to the fire - after all, they only work six hours a day, have loads of holidays etc so what the hell are they moaning about ? I just dont think striking is the answer - work to rule would be far more effective, could be sustained over a longer period of time etc etc, but again it is the kids that would suffer.

What am I trying to say? I dont know! I dont know whether to strike or not. I dont know how I feel about it.

I have always said that I would strike and support the Union.Now it has come to the crunch and I cant decide I feel frustrated at my own indecision.

I admit that I am, in many ways, not prepared to stand and be counted.
It sits uncomfortably with me in so many ways that I really do think that i need to change Unions, and am going to research others.


Why does it sit so uncomfortably? On a personal level I have five different exam groups that day. Yes, they will cope when I am not there, but I would rather be there. It impacts on other colleagues, and the school as a whole. The school closing, from the Union point of view, would be the ultimate aim - it would be great. However from the schools point of view it would be disastrous. It also feels "wrong", naughty somehow... like I am on the skive.

Yes, I would take any benefit that is gained as a result of the strike. However, I think teachers are alienated enough in the media without adding fuel to the fire - after all, they only work six hours a day, have loads of holidays etc so what the hell are they moaning about ? I just dont think striking is the answer - work to rule would be far more effective, could be sustained over a longer period of time etc etc, but again it is the kids that would suffer.

What am I trying to say? I dont know! I dont know whether to strike or not. I dont know how I feel about it.

I have always said that I would strike and support the Union.Now it has come to the crunch and I cant decide I feel frustrated at my own indecision.

quote:Originally posted by Ms. Scarlett

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by hazel
What should she do though? She's expressed her disapproval in a democratic way by voting against it. Does Union membership mean you have to go along with everything proposed by the Union? Of course not.

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sorry been out shopping just seen this...

what should she do? well in all conscience, resign from the union. i personally think its a bit rich being happy to take the protection, discounts, legal help etc that the union offers but not be prepared to take action when asked. its about taking the rough with the smooth isn't it? and as i said will the non strikers be rejecting any increase to their pay deal, that their colleagues may secure for them? i doubt it

yes she voted democratically. but the vote was lost. had the vote gone the other way, would it have been acceptable for the ones wanting it to go ahead and strike anyway? of course it wouldn't.

plus i think the 'i didn't vote for it so i'm not doing it' argument is a bit weak tbh. i certainly didn't vote for gordon brown and this set of dickheads to be running the country. does that mean i can ignore their polices and laws? if only ?

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Absolutely agree (apart from the fact that I did vote for the current govt, but that's another discussion really, and the point is still valid). If you join a union that doesn't have a conscience clause allowing members not to strike, you are agreeing to strike when they do.

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But surely they do-as it says on their website they don't mind if people don't strike?

Like I stated before, being in a union is about more than just strike action, and I don't think people should be forced to either not have the protection of a union (some jobs only have 1 union for that company/sector) or go against their conscience and strike.

Did I mishear this..or did only 30% of NUT members vote whether to strike or not? (and the majority of the 30% who voted at all opted to strike) I'm sure that's what I heard on the news....and if that's the case...then they should they be claiming that the majority of NUT member voted to strike?

Does that make sense?

I think this is a really interesting debate...I for one would feel odd striking, that's why I joined the NASUWT and I HAD been a member of the NUT but switched unions when I saw that this was potentially in the pipeline.


Edited to say...but that was only because I wouldn't have known what to do if I found myself in the same situation as you SK.

I dont know the percentage of the union that voted, but of those that did vote, 75% were in favour of strike action.

I also know that the number of votes in favour equates to 1 in 10 of the total teaching population (of all unions, not just the NUT). Not many really.

quote:Originally posted by St. Knickerless
I dont know the percentage of the union that voted, but of those that did vote, 75% were in favour of strike action.

I also know that the number of votes in favour equates to 1 in 10 of the total teaching population (of all unions, not just the NUT). Not many really.

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It was a 32% turnout so don't feel bad, technically the majority of the union did not vote to strike http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7325000.stm

quote:Originally posted by beetlebum-

It was a 32% turnout so don't feel bad, technically the majority of the union did not vote to strike http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7325000.stm

id="quote">

no, technically the majority of the union couldn't be arsed to vote at all?

at least SK made the effort to register her opinion

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by beetlebum-

It was a 32% turnout so don't feel bad, technically the majority of the union did not vote to strike http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7325000.stm

id="quote">

no, technically the majority of the union couldn't be arsed to vote at all?

at least SK made the effort to register her opinion

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exactly so she should really be patting herself on the back for being more pro-active than the majority of her union ?

I'm striking, if you're not going to support the union and their beliefs I think changing union is the best bet, I wouldn't cross a picket line myself, especially not that of my own union.

My H and I were talking about this today, and whether we will have to cross picket lines at school (both of us are NASUWT). It wpould not sit comfortably with me, so hopefully we will get union advice on Monday.

If you don't want to strike, and you are a member of the union that is asking you to then I really think that you should change unions. I would strike if asked to, as I do think that you have to take a collective stance, but I also agree that there are far more pressing concerns that we should be considering strike action over than pay.

I have to say too that I really don't think that work to rule would work in teaching, considering the number of my colleagues who still carry out admin tasks that workforce reform was supposed to eliminate. I ask our departmental assisstant to put up displays, she doesn't have time, they don't go up. Other colleagues do it anyway!

quote:Originally posted by Caroline T
I ask our departmental assisstantid="red"> to put up displays, she doesn't have time, they don't go up. Other colleagues do it anyway!

id="quote">Your WHAT!???? I dream of such luxuries...

I know[:I], but it's only a few hours a week and we are a huuuggggeeeee department (16 teaching staff). But she never has time to do anything apart from exam entries (it feels like!).

I feel I could write exactly the same as SK.

I'm in the NUT and just don't know what to do. I didn't vote, not because I couldn't be arsed but because I couldn't decide what to do.

We have a teacher at our school who isn't in a union because she is struggling to pay her rent because the cost of living here is high (south East) so she says she can't afford subs. My H and I are really struggling and a days pay loss would make quite an impact on us. Yet I totally see what people are saying when they say you ought to go with your unions values.

Also, my head is a bit of a nightmare so I don't know if she'd make our life difficult or not and mine is difficult enough as it is. She's so "it's all about the children" and this would obviously affect them. I've not been at this school long enough to know who is in what union either. My old head would have told me to strike!

(edited for spelling that should get me sacked!)

quote:Originally posted by sweetersong

quote:Originally posted by Ms. Scarlett

quote:Originally posted by kierenthecommunity

quote:Originally posted by hazel
What should she do though? She's expressed her disapproval in a democratic way by voting against it. Does Union membership mean you have to go along with everything proposed by the Union? Of course not.

id="quote">

sorry been out shopping just seen this...

what should she do? well in all conscience, resign from the union. i personally think its a bit rich being happy to take the protection, discounts, legal help etc that the union offers but not be prepared to take action when asked. its about taking the rough with the smooth isn't it? and as i said will the non strikers be rejecting any increase to their pay deal, that their colleagues may secure for them? i doubt it

yes she voted democratically. but the vote was lost. had the vote gone the other way, would it have been acceptable for the ones wanting it to go ahead and strike anyway? of course it wouldn't.

plus i think the 'i didn't vote for it so i'm not doing it' argument is a bit weak tbh. i certainly didn't vote for gordon brown and this set of dickheads to be running the country. does that mean i can ignore their polices and laws? if only ?

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Absolutely agree (apart from the fact that I did vote for the current govt, but that's another discussion really, and the point is still valid). If you join a union that doesn't have a conscience clause allowing members not to strike, you are agreeing to strike when they do.

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But surely they do-as it says on their website they don't mind if people don't strike?

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Does it really say on the NUT website that they don't mind if people don't strike? They can't force members to strike, but this isn't the same thing as saying they don't mind if they don't.

quote:Originally posted by Caroline T
My H and I were talking about this today, and whether we will have to cross picket lines at school (both of us are NASUWT). It wpould not sit comfortably with me, so hopefully we will get union advice on Monday.

If you don't want to strike, and you are a member of the union that is asking you to then I really think that you should change unions. I would strike if asked to, as I do think that you have to take a collective stance, but I also agree that there are far more pressing concerns that we should be considering strike action over than pay.

I have to say too that I really don't think that work to rule would work in teaching, considering the number of my colleagues who still carry out admin tasks that workforce reform was supposed to eliminate. I ask our departmental assisstant to put up displays, she doesn't have time, they don't go up. Other colleagues do it anyway!

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I'm in NASUWT and it'll be me and the handful of Antipodean staff at work that day. I very much doubt our lot will form a picket line - they're all just looking forward to a day off, but if there is, I shall cross it - no-one had better call me a scab. ? The children are being kept at home and as a non-class based, PPA-covering teacher, I have NO idea what I shall do. Ho hum.

I feel quite strongly that you should support your Union; however, I also feel strongly that pay is the least of teachers' problems really - it's really quite respectable, I think - and with the freedom to choose the union you wish, and knowing that NUT are the most militant of all, I chose to be in another union.

quote:Originally posted by catwoman
I also feel strongly that pay is the least of teachers' problems really - it's really quite respectable, I think - and with the freedom to choose the union you wish, and knowing that NUT are the most militant of all, I chose to be in another union.

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I agree entirely with this.