Advice from Photographers & Brides please...

That does seem like a bit of a catch22 situation. Why don't you own the copyright? Is there someone you can contact to gain permission to use the images?

As money isn't the most important thing right now, have you considered asking other photographers in your area if you can be a second shooter option in return for use of the images you take in your marketing?

Are you able to use the ship images to show brides, even if you can't publicise them so to speak?

Hi Kharv, unfortunately, the 3rd party company that we worked for that was subcontracted by the cruiselines owned the copyright and also took the negs / files at the end of the cruise to enable them to sell reprints.

I've considered assisting other photographers, but wasn't sure how happy they'd be to do it knowing that I'd be setting up in almost direct competition to them. The only way to do that I think would be to ask someone some distance away.

I do have some of the images in my portfolio, to show brides, but even then, getting to that point is difficult.

...and by the way, good luck for the 24th - less than a month away :-)

I know its not the same thing, but can you build some protfolio shots to show the style of your work etc at other social events - offer to do the shooting for free, you will produce photot's on your website people can buy or they can buy a CD etc.

That would give you some shots in similar type situations.

I know what you mean about being 'cheap' as opposedto reduced rates for portfolio building. But I think if you market your prices as you have described you situation here then you seem above board. Maybe offer a free enagement shoot before people commit? (might need a clause that says they only get the engage,ent shoot images if they book you for the wedding if you find you get nasty people who just do it for the free shoot) then they can see your stule in those shots to decide if they want to book you.

Personally I was keen to find a new tog looking to build a portfolio and someone who might have an interesting style, new ideas etc - my friend (a tog) agreed to do it for us so I never did in the end!

Hi Mark, that is a right situation you're in.

Personally our budget for a photographer was aroubd £1000 including album but had so much trouble with photographers pushing prices down our throuats for photography PLUS album that, if am honest we did get a little disheartened. All we wwant from our TOG are the following:

Within budget - our package was £899 - white leather album, 2 smaller storybook albums + dvd (we then added extras onto the package, printable dvd, other albums etc for less than £1200)

Someone we can trust, not someone who thinks that they are a TOG and have the right to treat people like poop. We should be able to communicate both ways with regards to what they want to do, what we want to do and what they can do. It does help that our TOG's are a married couple and so can do thing a little cheaper but it's the small things that matter.

One thing that we have found with a lot of TOGs is the time it takes to respond, if at all, to online queries. 48 / 72 hours fair enough but to never get back in touch is not on and we refuse to use suppliers if they do not respond or don't seem that interested.

One final point I will make that drives me potty, is that when we were looking for suppliers last year, even though our wedding is not until next year, around 75% of the suppliers (in general) were not really interested in our business and so gave us a leaflet and moved onto the next person. Not only is this rude but they lose custom.

I am not saying you are any of thses things, just what we have noticed

Thanks Dark Moomin, there's some food for thought there.

Thanks Mrs-Roth-to-be. I agree with what you're saying, there are many photographers who understand that they are providing a service and to try and cater for their customer's preferences whilst not compramising their own personal style. However, there are are also many who seem to think they are doing you a favour by allowing themselves to be hired by you.

it is rude not to respond to emails, it's also pretty foolish considering it's your business. I'm surprised so many dismissed the opportunity to book a wedding that was a year or so in the future, I'd have thought future bookings would ensure the stability of a business and save them from having to try and fill their books at the last minute - some people eh? Apparently the main reason so many photographers fail isn't because they aren't great photographers, it's because they aren't great business people, the ones that are survive are both.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

Mark

Personally, I would use the photos you have.

I know technically this is kicking a wasps nest amongst other togs but as soon as you have some landbased work phase out the old stuff ASAP.

Even though you took the photos under contract from the company, and they hold some copyright they would have to be bothered enough to chase you. Which they won't.

There are the couples to consider but 99% of all couples let me use their photos.

The only ones that don't are certain religions like Sikh, Muslim etc...be very mindful of that. Anyone looking distinctly Asian avoid using

If you can find them to get permission then the above becomes even less of an issue and I would definitely do that first.

Hi Mark and welcome to the forum.

You may be surprised how open some photographers are about having another second shoot for them. Not all, although more than you might have thought. The issue that wouldn't help though, is that you almost certainly wouldn't be able to use any images on the web. You probaby would be able to use as a non online portfolio.

It is worth networking, I will message you a couple of groups....you may already be aware of them.....The hitched messaging system can be a bit flaky, so let me know if nothing arrives...?

Peter

One thing that we have found with a lot of TOGs is the time it takes to respond, if at all, to online queries. 48 / 72 hours fair enough but to never get back in touch is not on and we refuse to use suppliers if they do not respond or don't seem that interested.

Thanks for your help Chris. I think that it may be my last resort to use them and phase them out, but I'll try as much as I can before that. I'm sure that in the future, the copyright laws will be protecting me, so I'd like, if at all possible, to avoid breaching them, even though ethically, I did take the photos. I'm hoping that the company will finally respond to one of my countless emails and let me use them, but having worked for them for 10 years, I'm not holding my breath:-)

Employers own any copyright so the cruse company will own the copyright and theres no way around that - my advice dont use, if you get caught it could end your career before its even started.

secondly i worked for a high street company shot 500+ weddings then left you have to start charging a small amount and raise your price accordingly its the only way to create a substainable business in the quickest way. if you go in too high no one will book.

its all about supply and demand, you go in cheap then you may book 70 weddings for the year. sure you will work like mad and not get a day off for weeks but you will end up with lots of sample images and in a better position.

I must add i left with no usable images as they belonged to the high street photographers, It took me 2 years to get in to a decent working position.

Thanks for your help Peter, I got the message and will give them a look. Finding someone who will let me assist in exchange for allowing me to use the shots may well be the way to go.

Thanks knotsrit - you're the second person to say that, I'm getting paranoid in case I've missed an email now :-)

Thanks for the advice Greenleaf. 2 years is about the time I was expecting to be able to go for "full" price, so it's comforting to know that you've found that to be about right. It's sickening though to have to leave all of that good work behind though isn't it?

Could you photograph a 'staged' wedding? Some volunteers with a dress and a location?

It wouldn't give you the full wedding album but you could get some details shots to start you off?

I am in my 3rd year of wedding photography (I have been working on small documentaries, training websites and with bands for a while) and this year is the first where I can earn a decent living from it. I started by doing weddings for £100 to build my portfolio advertising on gumtree I even did a few for free to get the experience. I talk to EVERYONE about it. I have a wedding this year in Cyprus where I met the bride through my part time nanny job she now recommends me to everyone so have inquiries on the go through her. I also have a booking from going for a nanny job I didn't get because I am not offsted registered haha but her friend has booked me for her wedding. Word of mouth is the biggest thing, I shot a director at an awards ceremony last year for £50 and through him I now get regular very well paid work for the ministry of justice. I have had family portrait sessions booked through customers from previous waitressing jobs. So chat away it will take time but word will spread!

Thanks Miss C - Funny you should say that, I have a "Bride and groom" and I'm just looking for a venue at the moment, although I have somewhere in mind :-)

*ahem* Mrs *ahem*

Great minds ?

Thats great news Ami, that's inspired me! As I mentioned, I'm not too bothered about working for free / low cost at the moment because it's all for the greater good - Have to admit, I hadn't thought of Gumtree though - excellent idea!!

Thanks again to everyone who has responded, your advice has all been excellent, helpful and supportive and will be taken on board. I'll keep plugging away and spreading the word and see how I get on.

Oops - sorry - Mrs. C :-)

Another option is to contact those within the bridal industry, such as myself, or cake makers/stationers and ask if they require a photographer for their shoots. I can guarantee if a well known company likes your work they'll then recommend you to others and their brides too.

But, as he has already taken best steps to contact the company a court of law would say that he reasonably tried to notify them.

Currently, he doesn't have a business a such to risk.

But I hear you, my first weddings were taken on blind faith.

if it was only that easy. - no there is no business there but starting off with a big copyright bill wont help.

...

clear your website of the high prices, you can forget that level at this stage, advertise a cd only deal for as low as you can go and get people to request a full pricelist, that way you have contact, with a bit of advertising you will be swamped with enquiries.

Hello Leanne

I am going to send a PM to avoid complete hijack

Thanks!

Another couple of points - I couldn't find your website via google even when searching for mjh studio. Is it a flash site?

I also couldn't see any reference to your location although I may have missed it? If you are willing to go further afield it might be worth putting where you're base but that you are willing to travel maybe?

Thanks Greenleaf - after the comments today, I was thinking that should be my plan for this weekend, It's certainly the way to build a portfolio, and tempting though it is, I don't want to set off on the wrong side of a law that I'll be relying on to protect my work later. At the moment I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I need the shots more than the money, that position won't last forever, so I should take advantage of it while I can and advertise at a low price.

Hi Kharv - it is a flash site, I'm currently talking to the hosts about trying to increase the Search Engine Optimisation - one (of the many) thing that I wouldn't profess to be is an internet expert.

Thanks Katie - good idea, I've done a couple of shoots for a cake maker and Vintage Bridal Jewellery, but I need to get them to pass my details on to brides.

Mark - there are other marketing outlets.

Facebook

Create a facebook PAGE for your business (not a personal profile). Add any images you personally own copyright on.
There will almost certainly be a Business facebook group for your location and you should be able to advertise there (link to your website and/or pagebook page).

Twitter

Create a Twitter account for your Business. Tweet about photography, if you're working anywhere, tweet about that - ie "#Wedding #Photo shoot at Hanbury Manor today!"

LinkedIN

If you have a personal profile, create a business and add services.

In all these examples, networking does help, knowing the good local TOGs will help you. I know some good local DJ's and recommend them if I'm already booked.

Sometimes they return the favour. So whilst they are competition, we all provide a quality service and would prefer to pass work to them, than any cowboys.

It sounds like you've got a good attitude and I'm sure you'll do very well!

Hi Mark i have to admit i haven't read through all the replies so i may be repeating another if so i am sorry but just a bit of advice for thought if not is a Photographer who i know who done this Advertised a really good discount "if booked well in advance" that would explain why your package would be so "cheap" he also asked a local hair and make up salon if one or 2 of the girls would like to earn some extra money as he had a project and could do with their help on, he had a couple as models and a second hand cheap dress and asked the girls from the salon to do the couples "hair and wedding make up" and then posed some shots at a local wedding venue (with their permission obviously) but they didn't mind as it would be advertising their venue. Maybe if you could do something like this and get a few couples/models together and do this and voila you have a wedding portfolio for your website and it isn't wrong as it is still showing your potential for wedding photography shots. HTH.