Business advice needed

Have they signed anything/is there anything in writing? I think you will have a problem pursuing the debt if they have not gone ahead, plus it will cost more money and time to pursue than the actual debt is worth.

Is there a procedure you can implement to stop the situation airising in the first place?

L
xx

Yes, I have a signature and a written email confirmation.

Hmm - what sort of procedure? With the mag we include the cost of advert design in the ad price, but it's too expensive to design web ads. The cost of advertising would put people off.

I think the problem is that small businesses think it's a great idea, and then suddenly realise they can't do the work themselves, and are unwilling to pay anyone else.

I m very big on "its the principle" and have an ongoing issue with a client about something similar. its about moral rights, so a little different, but they way they are behaving means that i ve dug my heels in, and the guy is SUCH a twat that i m not backing down, and will go legal if i have to.

however, in the case of 25 quid, i d just drop it and fire them as a client

as regards the rest, i would have your T&Cs/contracts checked by THE LAWYERS I REFERRED YOU TO (yes, shouting ?), and then once thats done, make it clear in all comms that their written agreement constitutes their agreement to your T&Cs etc.

At what point are they meant to pay? They should be paying at point of agreement if it's only £25.

L
xx

Sorry Nick <humble pie> I will get onto that. I need contracts written for the council project, so that is becoming a priority.

We now send out a contract with Ts and Cs and say that their agreement agrees to Ts and Cs etc, it's just before we got to this stage we weren't so rigorous. This debt dates back to June.

It's her high and mighty bloody tone that's really irritated me "I will not book advertising with you" - I'm not asking you to book, I'm asking you to flaming well pay for what you booked 5 months ago! I have emailed her copies of all the correspondence, the booking, I have spoken to her on the phone, as has my Accounts Manager and she's just acting like she has no idea what we're going on about. Even when it's in black and white - a copy of the signed contract. Grr ?

Actually, I find that almost all of my late payers get all indignant and make out that they're hard done by in some way - is this your experience too? A few are very apologetic, but this is more unusual.

Hmm, that's worth thinking about Lois. We can't accept card payments, but we could ask for payment within X days, couldn't we?

I don't think it'd be worth us paying for the card payment facility TBH.

I think your problem is that its too little an amount of money. people think "ah its 25 quid, yeah, whatever". as lois says, they should pay that immediately, or you should invoice them right away for the full amount owing. can you describe your whole procedure and service from point of initial enquiry? that will help

and re your point about people getting indignant, yes, they do. i ve just had a big issue with a late payer, so late in fact that i threatened (but did not send) a 7 day notice. when i said to the guy that unless i received payment by X, i d send a 7 day-er, he said "PFFFFFFF! thats so out of order! we usually pay our suppliers within 60 days...". when i pointed out that their terms with me were WITHIN 30 days you know what he said? "well, everyone goes over dont they?". amazing. he got snotty with me, i got snotty with him - he said they wouldnt use me again because i d been "heavy handed" with chasing payment - my response was that i d worked my balls off for them, done them favours left, right a nd centre, saved them money (substantial money) and their thanks for the service i gave was to avoid my calls and not pay my bill, and that the 7 day notice was a last resort to get paid. he said "well its still out of order". anyway, i got paid 3 days later, and i wont deal with them again.

i must also add that late payment for me is quite alien. in my previous business we had all our clients funds in house anyway, and at each quarter end we simply debited their accounts of the fees due, so it was never an issue. however, i am a stroppy twat, as you know, and wont put up with people who pay late. its a real piss take i think - and i work on the premise that an old man once told me (get the violins out) that of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

in your case though, i d drop the 25 quid. you ve already spend far more than that in chasing it.

If you can take card payments then you will make it easier for people. Are you with the FSB? You can get cheaper card facilities via them.
Otherwise, can they not pay on agreement? I wouldn't be talking any number of days, I would be talking payment on signing

L
xx

I wonder whether we should put the price up, actually, so that it seems more meaningful. ESPECIALLY if that would mean artwork could be included. We are currently using it as a bolt-on for mag advertisers, but it might mean we get different clients, mightn't it? Hmmm....

I got the "I deal with several other magazines and this hasn't been a problem before." I felt like saying "well I deal with several other clients who pay on time" but I figured I was being unduly arsey ? My other bug bear is ad agencies who knock 10% off the bill. FFS - your client is paying you, if you can't be bothered to negotiate at the time of the booking you can feck off.

I'll have to let this drop, but it's really bloody irritating me. I will certainly sack her as a client, that's for sure.

Can you post your process?

the mags i deal with all include artwork in the price, so i d just raise your overall price by 25 quid. fark me though, 25 seems damn cheap to me for artwork.

Put the price up, take cards, take payment up front. Then you never have to worry about non payers.

L
xx

Yes, sack her as a client and make it clear that you wo't be accepting any further business from her other than on a cash-up-front basis. Is theere some kind of local register of businesses that you could shop her to as a bad payer? Like fleabay feedback?

the issue there though is that some clients will not book ads for that reason. they want the 30 days. plus, many business owners or their staff will not want to put costs on a card, particularly if they dont have a business credit card. i take cards, but thats really only for private clients. no commercial client has ever said "oh yes, i d like to pay by card please" despite it being offered very clearly.

Hmm - the price for the mag advertising includes artwork - it's anything from £80 to £500ish. Online it's £25 for a 2 month button and banner, excluding artwork. Artwork costs me about £50 to get done (basic, no animation etc). We get about 100,000 hits per month.

The process is this: client books (usually by phone or email) we send them a confirmation of booking with Ts and Cs. We ask them to sign and return conf to us.

The payment is then sent the accounts manager who sends out an invoice by email and post - 30 day terms.

Off out to a firework display now, but will look later.

Thanks for the help so far ?

Hm, no. you need to send out the contract/terms by email or fax when you give them the initial price, not after they ve booked because they could easily argue that they have booked without knowing the terms, and then you have imposed the terms upon them, which is pretty much what youre doing.

i booked ad space last week and the process went like this

me: i m interested in ad space

her: ok i ll send you a rate card (which included the terms)

me: hm, no, too expensive etc

so then we do the negotiation dance and finally agree.

she sends me the confirmation email which expressly asks for a conf back from me, and points out that my conf is a committement and my agreement to the previously sent T&cs.

i write back to confirm, she then hands it over to her designer who gets back to me, we deal with artwork, she invoices me (but i v already agreed as part of MY terms that the invoice is not payable until 30 days after publication date, which is in dec)

ok?

In our experience, it depends pn the size of client. So, huge companies don't pay on card, smaller ones do (with the exception of a weird, specialist insurance co who paid on card). However, if the facility isn't there, they of course won't.
For such a small amount, there is no way I would give 30 days. If a contract is being returned, they can send the cheque at the same time.

L
xx

Hmm, yes, I see what you're saying. I'll amend our system - thanks for that.

We could send out the rate card as a matter of course with deals by email - we rarely charge rate card anyway (well, only to one client, it's not my fault if they won't negotiate <shrug> If I add the Ts and Cs to the rate card, then we'll be covered, won't we?

It always amazes me how some people think that being arsey in response to demands for money they clearly owe is acceptable business practice. This is why I agree with people on here that if they're being arsey, that's all the more reason to dig your heels in no matter how much money is involved.

I think I was about to embark on a late payment issue of my own a while back when you posted about one of yours. I was really trying to be reasonable and lenient about it because the client in question was my ex-employer but in the end, I had no choice but to take the court route and the guy, as Nick says, was being such a twat that I ended up weeding the court costs from him even after he'd paid the outstanding invoices.

If there's one positive thing I've learned, it's that people who object in ANY way to payment chasers/queries are not worth having as clients.

I'm not a business but we had lots of problems with insurance companies not paying us for GP reports. We now, on receipt of the request, enclose the invoice, and will only release the report once we've received the cheque. Saves so much hassle.

Oh, also when I took a booking enquiry when I was locumming, I emailed a copy of our T&Cs and put a bit in that confirmation of the booking by return of email constituted acceptance of my T&Cs.