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Beginner June 2009

Can I please get your opinions on the behaviour of my friends boss?

claireac, 3 February, 2009 at 09:43

Posted on Off Topic Posts 92

My friend lives in a small village on the outskirts of Leeds, and yesterday she tried to get to work but couldn't get out of the village. It's a good way out of Leeds and doesn't get gritted or anything. She phoned into work and explained why she couldn't get in to work. So yesterday her boss was...

My friend lives in a small village on the outskirts of Leeds, and yesterday she tried to get to work but couldn't get out of the village. It's a good way out of Leeds and doesn't get gritted or anything.

She phoned into work and explained why she couldn't get in to work. So yesterday her boss was constantly phoning and texting her, and eventually drove past her house in the late afternoon to see how bad it was, and then text her again to say how disappointed he was that she discounted coming to work so early and that she didn't re-evaluate the situation. He then text again at 8.30pm to say that the roads were going to be bad and he didn't want his employees driving if it wasn't saft and to use their judgement.

Needless to say that today she has made the journey. Her normal 20min journey took over an hour and she's shaking and upset by the state of the roads. She also has to see her boss this morning!!

What do you think? Personally I think it's disgusting behaviour, although I'm not sure where she stands. Any idea what rights employees have in the current weather situations? Should time off be paid, unpaid or taken as holiday?

92 replies

  • Missus Jolly
    Beginner October 2004
    Missus Jolly ·
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    For the current amount of snow that we have had in the south east I think that it is entirely appropriate for the reasons that Mr JK has outlined. I don't know about anywhere else.

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  • wodger_woo
    Beginner March 2007
    wodger_woo ·
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    We had a large amount of snow here yet I was still amazed to see that people who 'couldn't make it to school because of the snow' were able to get to the local Asda and buy a plastic sledge with which to enjoy said snow. ?

    Also why does it only seem to be snow that causes these mass closure of schools. Recently my area was hit by very, very low temperatures which the council weren't prepared for and the roads etc weren't gritted properly. However there were no school closures and everyone made it to work (albeit many were late) even though IMO the conditions were much worse than over the past 2 days.

    Anyway I'm just in a grump because my day has been messed about ?

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    Going back to the original question, as a manager myself my gut reaction is that this is unacceptable on the part of the boss.

    If I had questions over whether a member of my team could have got to work but had decided not to, as long as that person took a day's emergency holiday or chose to take it unpaid then that's an end to it. This boss's behaviour in checking up on her demonstrates at best a real lack of trust and at worst extreme control-freakery. Its also unnecessary (then again I do recognise I am coming at this from the perspective of a large firm - in a small outfit things could be very different)

    As a comparison, what would this boss do if she had phoned and said she was sick (not yesterday, just on a random day). Would he have bombarded her with texts and calls, would he have driven past her house to make sure she was there? No. (I do hope not, at any rate)

    She chose not to go to work yesterday - the rights and wrongs of that decision are almost irrelevant, as she made the decision and I assume was willing to bear the consequences in terms of lost pay/holiday. If there are no questions over her commitment and presenteeism otherwise, I'd be speaking to HR about this extreme reaction from her boss.

    As an aside my firm and others in London are moving away from the usual 'take it unpaid or as holiday' - there is dawning recognition that for once, this really was extreme weather with extreme travel consequences - and that it should be treated as a very exceptional circumstance. I have even heard of one firm which is not penalising those who didn't make it but instead paying an extra day to those who did.

    Light blue touch paper and retire....

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  • Mr JK
    Beginner
    Mr JK ·
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    I'm sure there were plenty of opportunists, but it's undoubtedly the case that a great many people either physically couldn't get in to work at all, or it was so difficult that there'd be no real benefit from getting in. At a conservative estimate, I'd have been at least two hours late in myself yesterday if I'd attempted the journey (which the train company advised me not to do), and I understand from colleagues that those who did struggle in were sent home in the early afternoon to give them enough time to renegotiate the same obstacles in reverse.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens with regard to my office-mate - unlike me, she has to be physically present in the office to do her job, and she couldn't get in yesterday and was very late today. But I suspect (and hope) her treatment will be extremely sympathetic, as it's hard to imagine anyone more conscientious on a normal day.

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  • Zebra
    Beginner
    Zebra ·
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    ?

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    Yes, for a while today we were asked to try to evaluate our respective staff and to make some sort of subjective judgement about whether they had been 'opportunists' or whether they were genuinely unable to get in.

    WTF?!!

    we have to treat them all the same, I think, with maybe a few stronger messages for those who we suspect just stayed in bed....but we have to have trust in our staff otherwise we're running a nursery or a prison not a company!

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  • L
    lucylu ·
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    As someone else living in Lancashire I was surprised that schools in Lancs were shut too. The snow was little more than a light dusting and only occurred overnight on Sunday/Monday. Lancashire is a large county - really large and TBH I would be surprised if more than a tiny number of school staff lived in an area where snow was worse than this. Surely schools employ more staff than the minimum to cover their ratios in case staff are off sick or on leave, so surely they should have been able to cover this too? Even if there was a risk of them not having sufficient staff to meet the ratios could they not have advised selective groups of children to stay at home instead of closing the whole school? I remember being at school and there being some reason why some staff couldn't come in (may even have been snow again) and Year 11 (or 5th year as it was then known) pupils were advised to stay at home and use it as preparation for their exams - so freeing up staff to cover other classes.

    If there is a risk of accidents in the playground then why not keep the children indoors at break times? Again I remember classes being kept in at break times when I was at school and weather was really bad

    Back to the OP and I have to admit I wouldn't count being nervous driving in the snow as being a good enough reason not to be in work. Plenty of people are nervous driving in the dark but they don't go home at 3pm in winter because of it. If she was that nervous she should have found another way into work. As for reassessing it during the day - isn't that common sense? If I was genuinely snowed in in the morning I would assume I was expected keep a general watch out and if the snow melted to make my way in (unless I had agreed with my boss when I rang in that either I would take it as annual leave or I would be working from home). I also think it's pretty fair game for the boss to either phone or text during the day. Unless it's been taken as annual leave then technically she is still at work - just from a different location and I think it's pretty fair game for a boss to contact their employees on a working day. As for driving past - again I think that's fair enough. If he is planning to talk to her about or possibly start a disciplinary then him saying he believes she could have got into work would surely need some kind of proof behind it? If he just said that he believed it would have been posssible for her to get in to work without actually knowing what the conditions were like in her area then that would be unreasonable ihmo. So he checked fofr himself what the conditions were like before deciding what to do about her non-attendance. Sounds reasonable enough to me. Sorry

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  • NickJ
    Beginner
    NickJ ·
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    Mr jk, i m not sure how my looking after children or not is relevant.

    hyacinth - its entirely legal to check up on an employee if you suspect that they are "skiving"

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    Lucylu I think I am glad you are not my boss!

    I'm not sure about 'unless it was annual leave she is technically at work' - if she is unable to work from home then she is simply absent. The specific nature of the absence - eg authorised, holiday, unpaid etc - can be determined when she is back in the office if she has not been specific in her call to her boss earlier in the day.

    I think its unacceptable from an HR perspective and I don't think its very good management technique either. Whether or not you consider it to be a good enough reason is neither here nor there - if the woman in question in the OP did not feel safe driving then that is her call. She's an adult and is able to make sensible decisions. Maybe you think she should be braver - may be I'd even agree with you - but its irrelevant. If the consequence of being a bit of a scaredycat are that she loses a day's pay or a day's holiday and she accepts this, then there's no call for the behaviour of her boss.

    In fact, if I did this to a member of my staff, I'd expect it to be ME on the disciplinary.

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  • Evy evy
    Evy evy ·
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    When I was young and at school, there were times when the snow was up to our arses, but never ever did the school close. We walked, and those who lived too far away stayed off.

    Changed days.

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  • Hyacinth
    Beginner
    Hyacinth ·
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    I'd be interetsed to see some evidence of that.

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  • NickJ
    Beginner
    NickJ ·
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    I d be equally interested to see evidence to the contrary, hyacinth. i d happily accept that youre right if you can quote the legislation.

    however, in the meantime, her not going to work could be classed as misconduct, and as such the employer has the right to investigate that. however, techinically speaking, I *think* that he should put the possible misconduct in writing (he certainly should for good practice), and THEN investigate, rather than just drive by her house. however, clearly he couldnt write and then investigate as the day would have been over. i m on the side of the employer with this unless you can show me that i m wrong.

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  • Lumpy Golightly
    Expert February 2003
    Lumpy Golightly ·
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    This question was answered yesterday Nick. Birmingham Grod for Learning have now posted this staement on their website:

    Birmingham City Council schools are expected to be open again on Wednesday 04 Feb 2009. The local authority's decision to close all schools for pupils' safety is no longer in force.

    On Monday evening, the decision was taken to close schools based on the weather forecast and in order to minimise confusion and chaos on Tuesday. Snow was forecasted to continue until 11pm on Monday night and there were weather warnings of extremely cold and icy conditions on Tuesday.

    The Highways Department advised that the public should not travel unless essential and it was against this background that the local authority decided to close the schools.

    It was important to make an early decision in order to give parents a chance to plan alternative arrangements and avoid children turning up at school on Tuesday morning to find it closed. Judging whether to close schools is a difficult decision to make and the safety of children is always the top priority.

    From Wednesday 04 February the decision to close any school is determined by the governing body and headteacher of each school. You are advised to monitor local radio and TV news bulletins and your school's web site for information.


    The explanation we have been given in work relates mostly to the reasoning that they want to get as much traffic off the roads as possible, and according to the above it's the Highways Agency advice that has led to that. Whoever proof-read that statement and allowed 'forecasted' through needs shooting though.

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  • E
    Beginner February 2013
    eastybabe ·
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    I was talking to my mum about this last night. I grew up in a small rural town with quite a large catchment area. The school was never closed, if you got in you got in. The day was generally spent drinking soup and having snowball fights and you were supervised by whichever staff managed to get in.

    I loved those days! Now the school would be closed due to supervision ratios or if it was open I can't imagine the kids being allowed out to play. I'm so glad that I grew up before health and safety (joke) and I'm only 30!

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    Yes I think it is legal, but there is surely procedure to be followed; there certainly is for us if we have cause to disbelieve someone on their reasons for absence. yes I work in a law firm so perhaps we are a bit over-cautious but there are ways and ways of doing it.

    i still think the boss in the original post is way out of line and the more I think about it the more I think his actions could be construed as harrassment of a sort. If this happened to me I'd be complaining in the strongest terms. We're grown ups and can make our own decisions about our own safety. Its inevitably subjective. I don't think the woman in the OP was skiving, I think she had a genuine concern and whether we think that is right or wrong its her call. She could, however, have been much clearer in her original call to the office - saying something like 'I don't feel safe driving, its horrible conditions and I am making the choice not to risk my own safety. I'll be taking a day's emergency holiday today' that could have helped the situation. Maybe she did and her boss is a psycho?!

    I'd be interested to see the outcome of this; what happened today?

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  • Lumpy Golightly
    Expert February 2003
    Lumpy Golightly ·
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    Progress huh? When I was at school almost all of the children and many of the staff lived in walking distance. That's less often the case now.

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  • Evy evy
    Evy evy ·
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    I agree. Too much namby pambying and fanny arsing about nowadays. The kids are wrapped in cotton wool! I don't know what's happening in the world today, but I'll tell you one thing for sure , it's snow! SNOW! Not an earthquake or a flood. It is snow.

    That's me done.

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  • Evy evy
    Evy evy ·
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    the good old days Lumpy ? Even when I began working, there were a few heavy snowfalls that just didn't deter us from at least trying to get to work. Most often we arrived late, but we were there. I suppose right enough there weren't as many vehicles on the road back then, but even so...

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  • NickJ
    Beginner
    NickJ ·
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    Lumpy, i m talking about lancashire, nowhere else. the forecast was not bad for today at all, yet they still chose to keep the schools closed, despite virtually all the snow here melting yesterday, and no issues with public transport (no issues yesterday either)

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  • Lumpy Golightly
    Expert February 2003
    Lumpy Golightly ·
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    Yesterday one of my colleagues was reading a book with Year 8 about some kids on holiday in Lapland. He looked out the window and decided to take them out for a snowball fight so they could 'empathise' with the characters. A senior teacher noticed and congratulated him for his originality.

    Another colleague was doing descriptive writing. She took her class outside, made them stick out their tongues and catch the snow. They went inside and wrote about it.

    A lot of colleagues would have been too worried about rules and regs to do either of these things, but I reckon those are lessons that the kids will remember forever.

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    'Unauthorised absence' is misconduct in my staff handbook - but this generally means either not showing up with no explanation, or asking for time off, having the request declined, and taking it anyway. In extreme circs I could use this to discipline someone whose timekeeping was lax, I suppose, but I'd be being a bit draconian if I did that.

    What the woman in the OP did doesn't really fall into that bracket does it - she explained, she had what she believed to be valid reasons. I don't think that I could get this to 'fly' as a misconduct issue on the grounds of unauthorised absence, at least not at my firm.

    In any event good management practice would be to resolve any such issue by discussion and informal action, not by throwing the book at people.

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  • L
    lucylu ·
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    Yes she is an adult and able to make adult decisions, but her decisions have a knock on effect to the company she works for and to her colleagues and (depending on the nature of her job) her clients. Yes there are consequences for her, but there may also be unavoidable consequences for others because she didn't come into work. If her reason for not coming into work isn't reasonable then her boss is well within his rights (imho) to get evidence of this and to take appropriate discipilnary action. By driving to her house that is all he was doing - getting evidence that the route was passable, so that he could work out whether or not her reason for non-attendance was reasonable. Surely it would be much more out of order if he said to her the next morning "I believe your route to work was passable though I have no evidence for this apart from a gut feeling, so i'm going to put you on a disciplinary based on my gut feeling"

    I never said she should be braver. Nor would I. Driving when scared isn't a good idea. But plenty of people are nervous in various different driving conditions - dark, wind, rain etc but they don't just say "well I'm not coming into work then" - they make alternative arrangements - get taxi, use public transport, get a lift, walk or even phone the boss and see if there is any work they can from home. As I said I know people who are very nervey driving in the dark but they don't just stop working early in winter as their job involves responsibility to others. Instead they arrange alternative arrangements. As a reasonable sensible adult it her responsibility to sort out a way that she fulfils her responsibilities to others, if there is any way to do so, not to expect that she can abdicate her responsibilities becasue the first option doesn't appeal to her.

    And you needn't worry about me being your boss. I'm not a boss and never will be because i enjoy the work I'm doing now. But as an employee I would have no problem if my boss treated me the same way as this boss. But then if it was physically possible for me to somehow get into work at any point in the day I would do it. That what they employ me to do

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  • Lumpy Golightly
    Expert February 2003
    Lumpy Golightly ·
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    I'd put money on their justification being the same though. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it - today's been great and I've got loads done from home, but I could have got into work, no problem.

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  • Helen**
    Beginner March 2015
    Helen** ·
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    My boss is happy to let people stay at home until the snow eases, when it does we are expected to make an effort to come in to work. Providing we do this then we don't need to make the time up even if we are only in for an hour otherwises in less the snow hasn't eased at all we have to take is as a days holiday. So your friend would of lost a days holiday at my work if the snow had eased in the afternoon.

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  • Evy evy
    Evy evy ·
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    Bang on Lumpy. I guess it's like you say, progress ?

    Ah well.

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  • Lumpy Golightly
    Expert February 2003
    Lumpy Golightly ·
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    No idea how my font changed in my previous post, btw. Purely accidental.

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  • NickJ
    Beginner
    NickJ ·
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    its subjective though isnt it? if i was this womans boss, and she rang and aid she wasnt coming in because there was snow, and i felt that it wasnt serious enough to warrnt her staing off, i d have insisted that she took a days leave, or come in. she could have got a cab after all, assuming the roads were passable, and it sounds like they were. even if not in the morning, certainly in the afternoon.

    what would happen if if for example the same woman had called in and said that she had a broken leg and would be off for 6 weeks, and t hen her boss saw her dancing on a table at a party the following week? clearly that means she would have lied about the leg, and would probably be fired. but how was he to know about the leg if he hadnt have seen her?

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  • Evy evy
    Evy evy ·
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    I think Nick is the secret boss of the woman ?

    Or he's bored and looking for a debate!

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  • L
    lucylu ·
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    Well there's frost predicted for here tomorrow. That will make the roads all slippery. Maybe for my own safety I should sod my clients, sod my colleagues and take the day off. After all I don't much fancy the bus or a walk to work either. Even if it warms up during the day, why should I look again at whether or not I'm going in. it may be frosty on Thursday too. Maybe even Friday as well. In fact it might be frosty until about August knowing the British weather. Still fair enough eh?

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  • hazel
    VIP July 2007
    hazel ·
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    Similarly my nursery told me yesterday they were going to be closed today, despite there being 1cm of snow on the ground yesterday and 1 inch today.

    Have I mentioned this before? Anyone would think I was cross about it, not least from my mixing of metric and imperial ?

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  • L
    Dedicated November 2002
    Lizbeth ·
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    A bit harsh I feel. But then again I believe in and employ a more sympathetic style of management. Not that I'm a walkover but I do generally treat people with sympathy and respect. If they take the piss I'll throw the book at them if its justified in doing so. The behaviour of this boss is unacceptable to my mind and I would be horrified if anyone did this to me. We are coming at this from different angles i think; I am working on the premise that it was a reasonable thing for her to do if she honestly believed she would be putting her safety at risk.

    yes we are employed to do a job and must make reasonable efforts to do it . But not at the expense of our personal safety. We're people, not machines.

    I will add that I couldn't get to work at all yesterday - just no way of getting there - I would be spitting nails if my manager had come to see if I was telling the truth.

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  • lmsunshine99
    Beginner August 2004
    lmsunshine99 ·
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    I think for me the point is that surely her work would have a policy in place that deals with this? For me had I not gone in yesterday or today then I could either take it unpaid, use a days holiday or use flexitime to cover it. Assuming she knows her work policy then once she has called in the morning saying she can't make it in, her boss should then just treat it as a days abscence according to the policy.

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