Children on public transport

That was pretty much my reaction once I recovered. I'd blacked out as I collapsed and came round sitting on the floor of a northern line train in the morning rush hour. Not my greatest moment. Since then I've learnt to recognise if I've going to collapse and either jump off at the next stop (if I can) or tap someone on the shoulder and explain that I'm not feeling well and would they mind letting me have their seat until the next stop.

Sometimes there are nice people though, and youngsters who offer their seat without prompting are always told they can stay where they are but thanks anyway.

I am amazed at all these lovely mums who let their children have seats while they stood. Mine never did, the cow ? she always sat and made me and my sister stand.

I've always, be it forced by my mother, teenager, or adult, stood up and given up my seat for the elderly, pregnant or otherwise infirm. I remember coming home from work once (I never got a seat either as bus was so busy) and a blind man got on with his white stick and not one fucker offered the bloke a seat. I couldn't believe it. Twunts. I used to quite often not get a seat when I commuted by bus as I worked outside of the city centre and the bus was often full, and whenever I did I used to think "right I've been working all day no way am I standing for some old dear going to bingo on her penny ticket" ? but when it came to it, I always did. My conscience wouldn't let me see someone in need stand while I sat there.

I don't really take my children on public transport but if I did given I have a 2 year old (who I could sit on my knee) and a baby (whose pram would get in the way) I'd be one of those who p1sses everyone off, probably.

On the pregnancy front, I've never had too much problem. I think I used to look menacing and people used to be too scared to not let me have a seat in case I came and sat on them or something ? although I remember being on the underground at 37 weeks pregnant with my 2nd, it was packed as one of the lines was off, I did get a seat but then an old lady with crutches and her leg in plaster got on and was having to stand - even though I was massively pregnant and needed the seat myself I felt she needed it more and was in the process of standing up (it took a while at that stage to lever my huge body out of the seat!) but someone else saw her and stood so I didn't have to.

I would expect a teenager (or anyone) to stand for an adult in need, but not just for someone my age or whatever as a "mark of respect".

RA, I and everyone I know of was made to stand/sit on laps on buses and respect our elders but we didn't join gangs. Why would that suddenly happen now?

I think it's balls to say that because [some] teenagers are made to give up their seats and respect their elders, they have to join gangs to reinforce their independance and self worth. Absolute balls.

I don't think that's what R-A is saying. I do think that respect has to work both ways. Teenagers have to respect adults but adults have to respect teenagers as well. I don't see that a teenager is any less entitled to a seat than an able-bodied adult. Yes, they should all give up their seats for disabled, pregnant or elderly people but why should an able bodied 17 year old stand up for an able bodied 35 year old?

Indeed.

This never seems to be a problem for children that have been instilled with manners and self-confidence and taught that respect needs to be earned.

I would let my son (a toddler) sit while I stood, as he's completely incapable of standing without falling over- he can neither reach the things to hold nor anticipate the movement of the bus/train. I find people tend to offer him a seat if there isn't one. I think seats should be offered on the basis of need, not age, and certainly wouldn't expect a child of any age to stand up for me. I absolutely agree with R-A about the disrespect accorded to young people in the UK and am sure it contributes to the hyper-sensitivity some teengagers have about it, which in turn contributes to gang membership and crime. Having said that, this is a small part of a wider issue- poor education, limited horizons, poor parenting and hopelessness are all probably more important than getting a seat on the bus ? I'm all for respecting one's elders, but a blanket policy that any child should give up his seat for any adult treats the young as second-class citizens. Respect and politeness work both ways.

Zooropa, have you ever thought of helping a mother struggling with buggy and bags rather than just watching her? ? On the buggy size point, I think part of the change is that people used to use prams for little babies (who need to lie flat) then basic buggies once the child was older. Now more people get a buggy that can be used all the way through and which converts from flat to sitting up, and these tend to be a bit bigger (you can get small ones- I've got one- but they tend to be a bit bone-shakerish when the baby is small).

I absolutely agree that teenagers should be respected and I don't think a teenager should stand for an abled bodied 35 year old. By elders, I mean much older and I'm sure everyone else does too. I don't think teenagers being expected to give up their seat to an elderly person (or even say 50+) means they aren't being respected, at all. If someone asked me pre-16 for a seat, I genuinely wouldn't have thought they weren't respecting me, I would have said "of course" and got up.

R-A thinks that because teenagers see themselves asbeing inferior to their elders, some will join gangs to assert their place in society. I don't agree with that at all.

Thanks Hazel I think i'd got hold of the wrong end of the stick, yes I see where you're coming from there is no sense in people giving up seats purely because of age.

I think it's very significant, though as Knownowt says, I don't imagine it all stems from being asked to stand up on a bus.

Surely telling a child they have to respect their elders just because they're older is the opposite of respect needing to be earned... ?

Exactly, I hadn't read this to mean all "adults" either, but common sense should surely tell you that (on average) somebody in their 50s or 60s is more likely to have need of that seat.

I think I agree with everyone in the thread who's of this view (quoting hazel only because it was the last relevant post). I wouldn't expect a child or teenager to get up and give me a seat on the bus for me, they have just as much right to it as I do.

The debate about prams is interesting. There was a bit of a fuss in Edinburgh towards the end of last year about the local bus company 'banning' prams - I can't remember the ins and outs of it but I think it was to do with not letting prams on/asking people with prams to get off only if there was a wheelchair user or another pram already in the allocated space.

There's a big difference between ordering children to repect their elders, and explaining to children why manners are important in society and why some people may be more deserving of a seat on the bus, yes ?

Everyone seems to agree that respect works both ways; nobody has said teenagers shouldn't be respected. I do, however, object to RA's attitude that teenagers aren't respected, therefore why should they respect those older than them. And the gangs comment is just ridiculous.

I wouldn't expect a teenager to give up their seat to an able-bodied 30-something. I would however like to think teenagers would give up their seat to someone disabled, pregnant or elderly, without prompting. That's respectful, that's what I'm talking about.

SOrry - meant to reply to this bit too! The OP just said adults and implied she meant her. She's not an OAP as far as I know ?

Theres always plenty of people on the buses around here(including me) who move out of the pushchair areas, make sure they have enough room to manouvre, flip the seats up if they are down etc and for our help we're lucky if we get scowled at. But that's probably Dudley for you. Even the old people push in the queue, there's always someone playing rubbish music through their phone and I even once saw a woman in the bus station give a girl who was 13 at most half of her fag to finish. Public transport is truely a miserable experience.

I travel mainly during rush-hour and prams are a constant problem - two people can easily slide past each other on a packed bus, one of these all-terrain buggies can't.

Most London buses have space for 2 buggies at a time, and if a third one wants to get on, the driver usually requests that it is folded, or that the parent waits for the next bus.

Seems perfcetly reasonable to me.

I agree with you- the tube in London is just as grim. I think being so crowded makes people try to pretend they're in a bubble and noone else exists- head down and get on with it. It doesn't make for a marvellous atmosphere.

I think some people on the thread were saying they expect children/teenagers to give up their seats for able bodied adults though.

As I said, as a child he would sit on my lap and at 14 years old he has certainly been brought up to be considerate and get up and offer his seat when it's needed by someone else. But I stand by the fact that at the age he is now, I wouldn't expect him to get up just because someone 10/15 years older than him got on.

That's vastly over-simplified though P&P.

Some psychologists believe there are three stages of childhood, especially for boys - the first 5-7 years belongs to your mother, the second to your father, and the third to an adult influence outside of their family - teenagers get into problems when any or all of these periods of time go wonky but you can have a good upbringing, be raised to have manners and confidence and respect, and still get misled by that outside influence.

There are various reasons a teenager can get sucked into say a gang culture instead of scouting or swimming team or whatever, but I'd imagine the biggest reason is poverty. That's not an excuse but it's not as if you see many upper middle class children roaming around nice streets filled with five-bed detached houses and getting up to no good with drugs and guns. That's not to say upper middle class children don't push limits too but they are more likely to have ways of letting of steam in a safe or at least more controlled environment.

FWIW, I think the teens of today have more restrictions and more consideration for others in some ways than they did 40 years ago - they don't get a clip around the lug if they step out of line, they're likely to get a criminal record that will hang around for years. They're much more likely to be mugged or shot now, and they are feared by adults and treated as criminals just for having the cheek to wear a hood up in the street.

I was always taught to give up my seat to somebody who needed it more - ie a pregnant lady, somebody older or with mobility problems, etc. I was never taught to give it up to somebody who was just older. I will teach my daughter the same. As for whether a child should be on a parent's lap, I think it's for the parent to decide - all children are different temperments (and weights!). My daughter is very prone to tantrums now, at 19 months, especially in public - but I think now is the time to start teaching her how to behave in shops and on buses. Ergo, there will be some trouble for a while...otherwise, she will never learn.

I'm trying to envision how this is meant to work in rush hour, to be honest - what with the sudden tide of workers, students, school kids...it'd be like a very brain-hurty game of chess ?

I've just worked out that in the last 12 months I have spent over 1000 hours on public transport.

After a decade or two you sort of get used to it. ?

Even the guy last night sitting with his feet on the seats opposite, singing and throwing the bones from his fried chicken on the floor seemed "normal".

I thought the original post was more younger children, who could have sat on knees or stood then mutated into older teenagers. Teenagers old enough to be in gangs wouldn't really be sitting on their mum's knee. ?

I think anyone paying an adult fare (14+ in most areas?) have as much right to another able bodied adult to a seat but hopefully most have an understanding of who needs a seat more.

Fair cop Zebra, that was lazy wording on my part, and yes, I accept everything you said, however I hope you'll also agree that teaching manners and self-confidence is generally a pretty good starting point, and frequently sadly lacking in many wayward teens ?

Now who's oversimplifying ? ?

Yes, exactly my point. If you look back at the conversation, you were responding to a post which said children should respect their elders. You agreed, then said respect has to be earned. I was simply pointing out that those two things are at odds with each other.

I don't believe there's anyone reading or responding to this thread who thinks it's wrong to give up your seat for a disabled or other needy person, or that children shouldn't be taught this. But that's not what I was responding to.

I think that was basically it, P&AP, but the problem was that some drivers (allegedly) stopped letting prams on at all 'in case a wheelchair user needed the space' and some parents didn't like being made to wait for the next bus because there was already a pram on board.

I agree absolutely with this - I also think it's a matter of manners. My niece and nephew were taught that it's polite and nice to get up to offer a seat to those less able to stand. (although when I just asked my 12 year old niece about this, she said she thinks anyone over 40 is old ?)

From the work I've done with Ebony, the vast majority of the kids don't have have any positive role models or boundaries at all. Their home lives are chaotic, full of shouting and physical punishment and zero acceptance. They see the elder teenagers with the guns, the drug deals and the flash cars etc and they see the fear in people's eyes and mistake it for respect. They believe the only way anyone is going to listen to them is if they have the bigger knife, the bigger gun, the more intimidating dog. A long way from giving up a seat on the bus, but these kids crave someone 'respecting' them - and getting that seat on the bus or refusing to move for someone else is a small victory in a life that doesn't have many other opportunities for them to feel good about themselves.

The middle class kids do get into drugs / guns but they also have parents who are better at getting them out of it without a criminal record.

The OP said "pre-teen upwards" which sounds a bit too big to sit on laps.

I was taught to stand up for the elderly, pregnant and disabled people as well as people carrying babies/trying to manage children and heavy shopping. I wasn't taught to give my seat to able-bodied adults and I agree that there's no reason why teenagers should stand up for them. I would still do the same on a train, although I am very careful about standing up for elderly men as I've found it can cause offence.

I think the lower fares charged to teenagers is due to them having less money rather than being less entitled to the seat - that's how I've always seen it, but I could be wrong.

It's a pretty difficult area as it can be tricky to tell who needs a seat and who doesn't. I don't look as if I need a seat at all as a young non-pregnant person but I have a balance disorder which means it's very hard for me to stand up on a moving bus (train is a bit easier). Equally my Mum who has early Parkinsons wouldn't necessarily look like she needed a seat (symptoms not very obvious and she's only in her 50s), but she does.

Maybe the answer is more plentiful public transport...

I'm afraid I think the whole "respect has to be earned" thing is total hooey. One shoukd start from a default position of respecting others. If you beleive respect must somehow be earned then you are getting into hoodie-wearing gangsta territory.

I'd have thought it would be the other way around. The hoodie wearing gansta territory comes from wanting respect automatically instead of expecting to earn it.