Councils ban use of Latin terms

I just came across this and was going to post almost exactly the same thing?

? at egg confusion...

Sorry - I don't see the problem with this. It's particularly talking about when writing to people whose first language isn't English.

But if your first language isn't English, and your English language is poor, you'll struggle to read the whole document, a few very very common latin terms aren't likely to add much difficulty.

I'm quite up for plain English rather than jargon but I don't see eg or etc as being jargon.

I'd say the words they are talking about are used as fairly standard english tbh.

I might just about allow eg or etc in a piece for a lay reader but not any of the others. They're fine in technical documents or those written for those confident with words, but for the general public, it's no problem to find a plain way of saying it (though I do feel a sadness that the general public don't understand them)

Bu where do most people learn these common Latin phrases?

I certainly didn't learn them at school. I suspect I absorbed them by reading and hearing people use them, and asking when I didn't understand.

If someone doesn't read much or of the type of material which uses these phrases, and isn't confident asking what the heck someone is on about when a word they don't understand is used, how can they exand their vocabulary.

I still don't know what e.g. stands for - I know what it means of course, but as for what it's an abbreviation of, not a clue.

I only know what Q.E.D. means because I asked my Dad once when the program was on TV. My school used some daft phrase abbreviated to 'W to the power of 5' to mean the same thing - no feckin clue what that stood for either.

And I think I learned what 'pro bono' meant from a courtroom drama on TV - what I could hear of it over my brother sniggering because he thought they said 'boner', anyway.

I just had to ask Mr L what QED was, but I knew the rest of them.

My favourite was in a recent year 13 lesson where a student commented that two different researchers had the same last name. It was et al. ?

I did - I remember my English teacher explaining the roots of them.

Incidentally, I went to a fairly crap secondary and we didn't have any facilities for learning Latin or Greek - what I'm saying is if we were taught it, I'd have expected it to be bog standard curriculum!

Maybe I'm wrong!

Like Hazel I'd only use etc/eg for public stuff, I'd not use the Latin words I use in my technical writing - per se, et al...

What? Why? Where? When? Who?

Which Was What Was Wanted. [shudder]

Do people really not understand "I'm going to the library via tesco" and similar?

Surely it's more confusing to say that you're going to the library 'by way of' Tesco?!

I'm all for plain English, but I believe that some (most) of the phrases in the news report are plain English. Pro rata, ad lib - both would take far more explaining 'translated' into English.

I agree if a council officer started QED or quid pro quo-ing me, I'd think they were being up their own arses and trying to show off - even though I know what they mean. *polishes school Latin prize*

I should explain I'm not boasting - only two of us took Latin at my school, and I was a dead cert for the prize, the other person having written 'Amo Amas Amat - I don't give a f***' in my leaving book ?

It didn't even occur to me that via was Latin when I was thinking of everyday terms just now ?

I'd say that not knowing what e.g. is an abbreviation of doesn't matter anyway as long as you know it is a fast way of writing for example - anyone could look it up in an English dictionary if you wanted to know.

What next? the banning or restriction of words like "entrepreneur"? "rendezvous"? "boutique","couture", "a la carte" etc?

its bloody ridiculous - words like "via" are in general use in english and have been for many years. plus, if english isnt someones first language, and they want to read a document which contains words like via, then they should damn well find out. PAH!

That was it!

I suspect my school was doing a 'plain English' thing, hence 'dumbing down' and not using apparently elitist terms like Q.E.D. I got called a snob for using that once...

It could have just been a teacher preference, once of my maths teachers used W^5, one used QED.

I am in favour of the plain english campaign - in so far as it should stop people writing total shite - but unusually i agree with nickj

how far will we need to dumb everything down to satisfy the thicktards and their apologists

there are lots of things i dont know so i look them up

if you are too stupid to do that you are probably too stupid to read it to start with - english or no

maybe deal with literacy and education rather than try and make everyone cater to the lowest common denominator

I think it would sound more sensible if they distinguished between Latin words aND eNGLISH WORDS DERIVED FROM lATIN (oops CL). "Via" is a fully assimilated English word, albeit one which derives from Latin. It's also the simplest way of conveying that meaning. Seems a bit nonsensical to ban it as being "Latin" unless they are planning on banning everything from "abacus" to "vagina" ?

Actual Latin words and phrases (ie non-assimilated words and phrases which people sometimes use in English, such as "QED/quod erat demonstrandum") are a different matter. Given how many people have literacy problems (whether through poor education, not speaking English as a first language or having a learning disability) and will be struggling anyway, the idea that council documents aimed at the public should be peppered with Latin seems bizarre.

We had a similar crackdown at my old firm (a firm of solicitors in the City). Obviously legal Latin was fine as it has a specific meaning, but all the extra lawyerly stuff like "inter alia" was out. I thought it was a very good thing; although I doubt anyone ever struggled to understand it, making people think twice about what they are writing and express themselves in clear, plain and precise English is a good thing. Too much Latin is a very clear sign of a second-rate lawyer (as is overuse of words like "heretounder") because it's a sign of lack of thought, except in the case of US lawyers, oddly, where making their prose utterly incomprehensible is part of the job.

I agree with your point in general but that's a horrible phrase.

And not being able to read or look words up in a dictionary doesn't necessarily nmake you stupid. You really do come across as unpleasant in some of your posts.

I couldn't disagree more. Most of the cases where a hard edit is required are because the writer doesn't know their arse from their elbow, not because the reader is a "thicktard." There are far too many appallingly difficult to read documents out there, which are written more for the purpose of trying to impress or show off than to actually communicate something. There's just no need for it.

I'm all for long words and flowery phrasing in the right place but that is not council leaflets.

I think i probably do - i think if i read some of my posts and didnt know the rest of me i would think i was a really horrible person

sometimes things make me quite cross and i post in a way that makes people feel badly about me

the rest of what i said in that post goes to the point that i think that government bodies and councils should be doing more to focus their efforts on educating and helping people properly so that they can either understand, read or look up things that are difficult

i shouldnt have said that people would be too stupid to read it to start with - that wasnt fair or right - i got carried away by my irritation

I dare say, if someone's first language isn't English, they may find it easier to understand "via Tesco" than "by way of Tesco". Obviously depends where they are from... but at the end of the day if you try to keep everyone happy, the only surefire way would be to dump language and start using pictures and gestures instead. ?

Banning such commonly-used Latin abbreviations as e.g. and etc. seems rather OTT, since they are seen so frequently - they're an essential part of being a basic user of English. I do see the point about phrases such as pro rata, quid pro quo etc., since I would guess that the majority of people don't know what they mean. This is pretty sad, but since the very teaching of Latin in state schools seems to be seen as buying into something elitist (total nonsense, obviously) it makes sense for public services to follow suit. I think this is just as much about native speakers than learners of English (for whom slang is likely to cause more of a problem than Latin phrases, as Sofianna says).