Feel so angry and undervalued.

I think it's appaling that amongst other things you will be expected to care for eldery residents , be on your toes in case of emergencies and everything else that goes with caring for someone, when you've had no sleep!

I'm telling you, more and more I'm hearing how crap some care homes are. Not just with their standards of care, but with how they treat their staff.

Are you part of the union? Surely there's something they can do

That sounds like very bad management. Look for another job?

(Mind you as a junior doctor I worked an average 83 hour week; the worst week was 120 hours. We were allowed to sleep at night but there was rarely any chance as it was too busy. So it is possible. But I still have nightmares about that job.)

Thanks for the replies.

I have set nights which work really well for me. I am also disabled so getting another job could take a lot of work. Honestly despite having tons of experience I got so many reject letters before I got this job. Of course it may of not been the reason may just be paranoid.

There is a law I have heard of which says they have to give you an 8 hour break between shifts but because they aren't paying us they say they are covered.

My lovely mum is in a care home for elderly dementia patients and I would be horrified to think she was being 'cared for' by someone who had been on the go for over 24 hours; how can they possibly expect you to be alert?

Sadly though, I'm not that shocked. Certainly at my Mum's place they don't care about the ill residents, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't care about the staff either.

I don't know much employment law outside education but it just doesn't sound right to me? If they are directing your time by insisting you attend training, I would have thought you should be paid? Who would be liable if one of the patients fell and was seriously hurt, or there was a mistake in the administering of their medication because the staff are all shattered? It sounds awful to me. :o(

This sounds entirely wrong, have you tried contacting ACAS to see if they can help? It seems there are two issues, one that you are being expected to work for no pay and another that you are not being given sufficient breaks. The first impacts on you but the second also impacts on the people you care for and the quality of the care you will be able to give them.

I find it appalling that people in caring industries are treated so badly when the work they do is so important but you hear so many stories of similar.

I would defintely speak to ACAS, what they are doing sounds decidely dodgy.

Danger mouse, You are entitled to be paid for training it's part of the national minimum standards.

Staff Training
STANDARD 30
30.1 The registered person ensures that there is a staff training and development
programme which meets National Training Organisation (NTO) workforce
training targets and ensures staff fulfil the aims of the home and meet the
changing needs of service users.
30.2 All members of staff receive induction training to NTO specification within 6 weeks
of appointment to their posts, including training on the principles of care, safe
working practices, the organisation and worker role, the experiences and particular
needs of the service user group, and the influences and particular requirements of the
service setting.
30.3 All staff receive foundation training to NTO specification within the first six months
of appointment, which equips them to meet the assessed needs of the service users
accommodated, as defined in their individual plan of care (see Standards 3 and 7).
30.4 All staff receive a minimum of three paid days training per year (including in house
training), and have an individual training and development assessment and profile.

The 3 days are full time hours so a 1/2 day course counts as just that.

I have had a similar issue in the past, a quiet word when the inspector was in had the desired effect.

Thanks a lot for that. I will also look into ACAS.

Thanks evrybody.

Glad that there are people with more HR knowledge than me who can give advice. Would have just said that it sounded decidedly wrong what they were asking you to do. I also think that a phonecall to ACAS is in order.

How long have you been working there ?

I thought it was 11 hrs between shifts?

Pretty sure it is....we have 2 late shifts which finish at 19.15 and 20.30, and 2 early shifts which start at 07.00 and 08.00, and the person who has done the 20.30 finish is always scheduled the 08.00 start (and the person who has done the 19.15 finish is given the 07.00 start, as it has to be at least 11hrs between shifts.

I'd be contacting CSCI, you cannot be providing adequate care with no time for sleep.

I would also be looking for a new job, care homes are always desperate for good night staff. Your disability doesn't stop you doing your present job so you should get another one easy enough.

It is pure and simply neglect, but you already know that.

They say they can make you come in without 11 hours after your shift as they are not paying you its not on record. It is really appaling. The problem is that everyone else feels obligated to go along with it so it will be me fighting the battle alone (which I'm crap at). Last night I worked after being unable to get any sleep but admittedly I was resting in bed.

But still thanksyou for all your thoughts and replies.

Payment or not, it comes under health and safety law so applies to all employees / volunteers etc. I'm a bit rusty on the Working Time Direcetive, but def get in touch with ACAS.

That is appalling. I'm a trainer for the organisation i work for, I work with disabled adults and I train in moving and assisting. Under the Health and Safety at Work Act the employer has regulations - they have to provide training to all staff, the training should be worked into their rota (as far as they can) obviously if you are working nights then thats near impossible. So the employer must make arrangements for you to attend training that does not interfere with your working. So, they can offer you to come in on one of your days off. THIS MUST BE PAID AS IT IS WORK!!!! you shouldnt be doing any training unpaid - thats a load of bollox.

Now the Working Time Directive, hmmmm.... i'm sure it was 8 hours between shifts.

Its a shame the amount of money people spend to be in care homes and the management can just be utter twats when it comes to taking care of their staff, sadly this starts to affect the residents - staff are over worked, under paid and sometimes working without the proper equipment to help them with the residents. ?

If I have time later I can hunt out all my legal stuff and get back to you with more if you like.

Nik

Thanks for that. I went to the first training session and was there 5.5 hours and lunch was provided and the outside trainer thought we should be paid. The second one is 6.5 hours long and before a night shift.

I'm not sure what I am going to do but to get all the information I need will give me the info if I decide to make a stand. I'm not good at confrontation but then again I'm not good at working nights without any sleep. I know they are crossing the line especially with it being in the care field with vulnerable adults.

But aain thankyou for all your replies.

This is not my area, but I work on Health and Safety with regard to driving and drivers hours, and no a lot about teh H&S legislation that they should be aware of and why they shouldnt be doing this to you (irrespective of the pay, which certainly isn't my knowledge)

Employers have a duty of care to employees and anyone who will be affected by the workings of an employee. By making you work long hours without sufficient break then they are potentially failing in their duty of care to you and to their patients. Should someone die because of this failing then the company could be prosecuted under the corporate manslaughter and homicide act and be fined a (v large) % of turnover. If an individual was found to be "a controlling mind" (and since someone has had to make the decision to make you do these hours it shouldnt be too hard to find) then they could individual be prosecuted for (corporate) manslaughter.

Even if someone didnt die, then there are two health and safety acts the company could be prosecuted under id the HSE found they were failing in their duty of care. And again from an individuals perspective the health and safety (offences) act, which came into effect less than a month ago, that the same "controlling mind" could be imprisoned for up to two years.

This obviously doesnt help you in ensuring pay, but it may give them more business based reasons to reconsider if you wish to pursue this.

Hi

Under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, reglutaion 13 states "Every employer shall ensure that his employees are provided with adequate health and safety training" and that the training "shall take place during working hours" However, this is very difficult as a nightshift worker, so they should try and arrange yor training when you will not be working on the same day.

Under the Health and Saftey at Work Act 1974 Employers must ensure the health, safety and welfare of his employees. This includes provision of adequate information, instruction, training and supervision; provision of a safe working environment and adequate welfare facilities. I dont think your employers are ensuring your health, safety and welfare by expecting you to work long hours without a sleep!

The Working Time Regulations state that working time is when someone is working, at his employer’s disposal and carrying out his activity or duties. This includes when a worker is undertaking training that is job-related. So your training must be classed as working time, therefor must be paid.

It also states that employees must have " 'Adequate rest' means that workers have regular rest periods. These should be sufficiently long and continuous to ensure that fatigue or other irregular working patterns do not cause workers to injure themselves, fellow workers or others, and that they do not damage their health, either in the short term or in the longer term" so you can easily argue that between the training and the start of your shift you do not have an adequate rest break, therefor you are a higher risk at work of causing injury.

The rest break between shifts is 11 interrupted hours between each working day(I thought it was 8 for so reason......) However, as you work in a care home then this is classed as a special circumstance as the home needs 24 hour staffing. This allows you to take rest at different patters, as long as you are getting 90 hours rest a week.

I dont know if that will help. I'm sure theres other people on here who can offer a huge amount of advice and more legalities to it all!

Nik

As Hawhaw said, CSCI would definitely want to know about that - I've read inspection reports where similar approaches to staff training were considered a serious concern. Its considered poor practice (though very common still I believe) for a handover meeting to be an unpaid extra tagged onto the shift - never mind a full day training.

If you are required to be there then the fact it is unpaid is, I suspect, irrelevant in health and safety and working-time-directive terms. Not an HR specialist, so not absolutely certain though.