Friend as a tog?

Although my photgrapher is Professional now, When I first met her, she was offering a free Wedding Photographer for the day. I didn't or hadn't seen any of her work, so I asked if we could have a free engagement shoot before hand, so I could then make my mind up.

The photos came out amazing, and I was so so happy with them. Which then lead me to booking her to shoot my big day. It was so lovely having a 'friend' there shooting your wedding day. I trusted her in everything she did, and I didn't mind her telling me what to do either. And whats more, I felt so at ease having her around.

xx

Go cheap pay twice.

I'm biased but it's because I know that people management skills, knowing what works and what doesn't etc cannot be taught.

Only after 20 weddings did I ever feel like I knew what had to be done and where, if you can afford it pay for a pro.

If you understand the value of good photography, pay for a pro.

Depends on your budget, but after all the expense on everything else you're going to want it documented accurately because apart from memories it's all you'll have after all the foods been eaten and the venue cleaned.

I'd say it boils down to how much of a gambling person you are.

The engagement shoot sounds like a good idea. It would give me an idea of her work. The people management and knowing who should be where etc is what worries me. I don't want to be constantly worrying on the day about the photos. And after all that money spent, photos and rings are all the physical reminders you have, I wouldn't want to be disappointed. OH would probably be happy to gamble on the cheap option, I'm still very undecided.

Agree that you should see some examples of her work before deciding and then go for an engagement shoot if you like what you see.

However as said above 95% of wedding photography is people management skill. I am a keen photographer and have been shooting seriously for about 2 years now and I have got quite a bit of experience shooting people and think I can produce good quality images. However the idea of shooting a wedding scares me. I have been on two wedding photography workshops with a very experienced master photographer and have seen what it takes to really do a good job, people skills are very important as is crisis management (does your photographer have back up equipment, insurance, would they know what to do if the car broke down, the bride was two hours late squeezing photography down to 15 minutes time or if it's raining) so experience is important.

However on the other side of the coin being in that sort of position my self, how do you get experience of weddings if you can't shoot weddings because you don't have experience?? Well there's second shooting - following a professional around, even just carrying the bags , seeing what they do, how they manage people what they do with difficult people, with difficult situations etc. However it's a leap to go from that to managing it and being number 1 photographer but everyone has to take that leap at some point.

It's way more than just photographic technique - if you want to go with the friend then perhaps see if they have any experience or can gain experience by second shooting. To be honest your wedding is quite a way away which gives the photographer time to gain some experience - and some of the skills. but make sure you keep tabs on whether they actually are developing their skill set in a way that you like - that you continue to like their style etc.

Oh... Carmen comes out from Lurk mode! lol

I think this is dangerous territory. If your friends daughter does a poor job, it will risk your friendship (and also you'll have some poor photos from your Wedding).

Some things may also be outside her control, equipment problems are less of an issue with pros (who will have multiple cameras, flash and lenses), but a student may only have 1 set of gear.

Would you use anyone else with the same level of experience? (ie a student?) If not, I think my advice would be to use a pro, or at least someone with some real experience.

The engagement shoot could be good though - less stress for her (and you), it adds to her portfolio, so win-win IMO.

Would you let a trainee mechanic fix your car?

A trainee dentist drill your teeth?

I have two amateur photographer friends who have kindly offered to photograph our wedding, but I have politely turned them down. For me, having excellent photos is hugely important, as in years time, they will be one of the few reminders of that day. Personally I wouldn´t take the risk of using somebody without the necessary experience.

As the other posters have pointed out, being a wedding tog isn´t just about being able to take good photos. It´s about being able to manage people. I was at a wedding a few weeks ago where the tog really wasn´t assertive enough and was struggling to round people up for the group photos. In the end the bride and the MOH started rounding people up for him - I was horrified!

Another friend recently got her photos back from a professional tog. She told me she couldn´t find a single portrait photo of her and her OH in which they both looked good and were both looking at the camera.

I´ve also seen professional pics where the tog clearly hasn´t bothered to edit the photos - one had taken several family portraits at a friend´s wedding but not deemed it necessary to cut out the guest sat at a nearby table with a pint in his hand.

These experiences have made me realise that there is a huge difference between the professional togs as well. It seems to me that it´s definitely a case of getting what you pay for.

Interesting question actually I'm thinking of doing the same thing. A friend of mine is doing a photography course and will have almost finished by the time we get married and I have provisionally asked her if she wants to do it. She has taken my request very seriously and is going to see what other equipment she might need and get some more experience in the meantime. Her people skills are great and she'll know some of the guests already so I'm not worried on that count although she doesn't really do wedding or portraits up to now.

I know she is not a seasoned professional but I have seen some awful professional wedding photos in my time too and being that we're getting married abroad we're struggling to find anyone recommended by word of mouth so we could be taking just as much of a gamble by getting an unknown pro....

Yes, provided they had adequate supervision and training. How else would anyone learn? But I'm biased because if nobody let trainees do anything, my job would disappear and in a few years the NHS would be screwed. Also my views on photography go against the hitched/general wedding force of opinion.

OP - I think you should meet the girl, have a look at her work and maybe do an engagement shoot with her. Try to get to know her, see if she's done any weddings before and how she would plan to cover the day. If you are happy that she knows what she's talking about then go for it.

On a seperate point, if you have wedding insurance, it will only cover the photography if you have hired a professional.

Wedding photography isn't really like doing portraits or engagement shoots. You are allowed plenty of time for these and will bear no resemblance to wedding photography. On a wedding day, the stress is racked right up with other vendors, ministers etc applyling time pressure and limitations. Guests will be unforgiving if you dither and take time away from them being at the bar. The photographer needs the skills in managing all of these and still use their craft to deliver the photography.

Do consider your decision carefully. Many well known high profile pro togs won't touch weddings as it is a very different type of photography to anything else.

Peter

Its all about risk, If you are happy to take the risk go for it the pictures may be amazing... but what happens if things dont turn out as they should, Could you complain to your friend?

There is generally a saying among professionals, Dont shoot friend or family weddings. 1 of the reasons is that there is the risk of no one listening or taking you seriously because of the connection.

Im not saying dont do it i would just say work through all options and situations, as i said the pictures may be amazing.

I would ask for example work and the pre wedding shoot is a good idea.

"And after all that money spent, photos and rings are all the physical reminders you have, I wouldn't want to be disappointed."

I feel that with that statement, you have answered your own question.

I wish you the best when weighing the pros and cons of this decision, and whatever you decide, may it all go well for you on your big day.

Andrea de Gabriel

It depends how important the photography is to you.

At my sisters wedding earlier this year, they were not bothered about having a proffesional, so long as they had a few photographs of the day, so they asked my OH to take them as it is his hobby.

They were really pleased with the photos, but now we are looking at booking our tog, we really want something a bit special, so will be making sure we hire a proffesional with a good lot of weddings behind them already

Not quite.....I found a competitor local to me last night and on looking at their gallery found they are using 1000D's as their cameras (rebadged 400D's).

These cost 1 tenth the cost of my camera yet looking at their prices they charge an average £200 more than me and have not (or do not appear to) understanding flash or lighting.

This seems to be common ^ and is what I'm trying to avoid becoming myself, I'm trying to be as professional as I can with my photography which I have registered as a small business- I'm not yet going into wedding photography (I'm not even sure that's the direction I want to go in) my website doesn't mention it as something that I offer although I easily could by blagging it and uploading photos I took on workshops with models in bridal costume and I do have pro-spec kit and back up gear/ insurance and I reckon I could at least do a reasonable job - however I don't want to do a reasonable job I would want to do a very good job!!

I reckon the problem partly is that everyone now is so used to seeing poor quality pictures uploaded on Facebook taken with mobile phones, spotty with noise, faces whited out with the LED flash - that any kind of decent picture taken with a decent camera looks great so they might not even realise what a professional image really looks like.

I Disagree with this whole you get what you pay for with photography as when people first enter the market they initially think they can charge what the more experienced togs charge.

You need to be asking how many weddings they have shot and how long have they been shooting weddings for and then match this against the price.

I would not like to be paying £1000 + for someone who has only shot a few weddings as for that price you can get someone who is a bit more experienced. Photographers mindsets are also different as some charge alot of money in an aim to shoot a few weddings with a high spend. others charge less in an aim to book alot of weddings as they like to get out and about and keep busy.

I also know of one photographer who charges £2000 and when i see them at a wedding wonder how on earth can he charge that much as... well lets be honest his practices shouted amature.

"I reckon the problem partly is that everyone now is so used to seeing poor quality pictures uploaded on Facebook taken with mobile phones, spotty with noise, faces whited out with the LED flash - that any kind of decent picture taken with a decent camera looks great so they might not even realise what a professional image really looks like."

An excellent point. And, sadly, true.

Andrea de Gabriel

That really is a good point. I really don't know what to do for the best myself now ?

Hi Jenny,

Without becoming too technical, look for a photographer whose images are clear. In focus. Not too dark or too bright. The skin does not look too orange (bar the B&G not being Oompa Loompas or having terrible fake tan!!!) or too blue.

These indicate basic photo skills, but the list is not exhaustive and one has to allow for artistic license as well. However, if you look at a pro's portfolio with years experience, the difference between his/her images and an amateur *should* be obvious.

Good luck!

Andrea de Gabriel

Just take it back to what YOU want from the images, have a look at many sites from many photographers even in areas not local to you to get an idea of the style you like and what looks best to you, they're your images after all.

Only you will know what you really want from the photos, as for the photographer try and meet them as said before an engagement shoot will help you and the photographer to get to know each other and work together.

Obviously I'm quite fussy about photography but I didn't have a huge budget - I looked around and spoke to a couple of photographers including Peter who has replied on this thread. Peter is a great guy and we were torn between him and another photographer of similar price (not cheap but certainly not expensive). However in the end it came down to style, Peter takes excellent images and obviously has plenty of experience and most definitely would have done a great job, however the end style I wanted was different to what he offered so we've gone with someone else.

We actually have our engagement shoot this weekend and I'm looking forward to it, the girl we've gone with is around the same age as me and when we met we got on very well. In fact everytime I phone her it turns into a half hour excitable conversation about various styles and images poses, fun shots etc that we'd like to try. She's so enthusiastic and actually really likes it that she can talk "technical" to me and I'll understand what she's on about. Puts my mind at ease that at least we're on the same wavelength.

Hmm, some very interesting points have been raised, though I feel it's helped sway me towards a professional. I doubt she'll have shot any weddings tbh, she's only about 19 now, so still very young and I'm guessing, rather inexperienced. I do understand the whole 'everyone has got to learn somehow' point, but it is quite hard to feel like that when it's your own wedding being used almost as a practice exam paper. Will have a chat with OH about how important the pictures are to him, though if they're not all that important, then we'll probably end up taking the gamble.

We had a friend do our wedding photos and we paid pretty much next to nothing. He's done photogrpahy at uni and had done photogrpahy for a cruise ship for 6 months and worked for a photofrpahy company doing family portraits. when he did our wedding i think it was his 3rd.

About 6 months before the wedding we went to his work studio for an engagment shoot and the photos were fab. Although he didn't have much wedding expereince we trusted him and as he was a friend we could contact him when ever and could be a bit bossy on the day making sure all the shots we wanted were done.

When we were back off the honeymoon he had done all our photos for us and gave them to us on a disk with full copyright. this meant we could create the album we wanted when we wanted how we wanted.

Although he was a novice in wedding photogrpahy you couldn't tell with the images he took, i have a beautiful wedding album and wouldn't of swapped him for a professional. The wedding has also been accepted for a magazine so they cna;t be that bad!!

Sorry but I agree with Helenia here. If nobody lets trainees do anything then shortly there would be no professionals left!

My uncle and my cousin who are both semi-professional togs are doing ours. Its a free wedding present for us and cutting out about 2 grand of costs for us. We're doing an engagement shoot with both, and if it comes out rubbish then i'll eat my words and hire a professional. If you see their work, their qualifications and like them, then give them a go for an engagement shoot. If not, don't do it. Simple as that. Its up to you, don't just go off what people here say, use your own judgement. Places like hitched end up being a concentration of experiences that don't always reflect the general majority.

Wow, little miss stubborn, it sounds like you had a really good experience. Lucky you! And about giving amateurs a chance, I go to a student dentists all the time. I had a root canal and ended up saving about £600! I think I'll have a word with my friend and ask what experience she's had and definitely look through her previous work. For all I know, my friend has never even discussed this with his sister and she may prefer shooting landscapes or something!

Thanks for the comments Loonymoon? It nice for people to see real photographs and not images on a website screen which never shows images at their best.

Hope that all your plans are coming together (just over 10 weeks for you....no panic!!!)

Peter

My first wedding:

One from two weeks ago:

Going back to the dentist / mechanic comparison. About 6 years ago I had a bridge fitted to address an extraction.

Unfortunately after 2 years it broke loose from one of my teeth. I'm now having to have it cut away and 2 implants fitted at 2k a pop.

I also had a trainee mechanic fit a headgasket on my car several years ago too. It was fitted incorrectly and water got into the engine.

I'm certainly not saying that all of those starting out are rubbish but certain things shouldn't be entrusted to trainees unless they can truly prove their worth in the first place. Some things cannot be undone. Weddings are one such thing.

Your wedding is in 20 months. who's to say she wont have gone uber pro by then and be charging 5k for a wedding?

I say go for a couple of pics with her and see what theyre like, then you can make a decision. my friends mum used a girl who was just starting out for her wedding and the pics were gorgeous.

We were torn between 3 togs, we met them all and looked at their work and went with the one we liked best. The get what you pay for thing doesnt really wash with me because were quoted £2,500 for photos from one tog (which we werent massive fans of the style in the end) and ours is £500...granted we're only having the images on a disc, but she works from her home studio, so no overheads, which means our photography is cheaper. She is very good and is professional...but £2k less than a big photography studio.

Chris, no offence but i suspect you're being just a tad precious about this, and overprotective about your craft and skills.

So she's not a professional now, as October11 said, in two years she could be a highly sought after professional charging a lot of money. That doesn't mean that this woman isn't a fantastic photographer and could very well produce fantastic results. EVERYONE starts somewhere, and if she can show freckles that she can produce good images and is a lovely person with great people skills then why not give it a go?

Like i said, hitched can end up being a place of concentrated bad experiences. BT is a brilliant example of that, so many tragic baby losses on one forum, but in real life how many people do you actually know who have lost babies at X weeks or due to complications in birth? None i bet, one at the most. I can name at least 6 or 7 members of Hitched and DW who have had such tragedies.

The general population at large can't ALL be hiring professional photographers surely?!

October11, you make a good point. In almost 2 years she could have developed amazing skills and turn out to be a brilliant photographer. I'm definitely not going to write her off without putting some serious thought into it. £2500 is a hell of a lot of money, sounds like you've got yourself a bit of a bargain there.

Chris, you may have just been very unlucky with both your car and your teeth. There is a dental hospital here in Sheffield that uses only students, surely the majority of people who go there have a good experience, or they wouldn't be allowed to offer it as a service.

Don't take it the wrong way folks. I'm only illustrating things from one point of view...mine.

There's many shades of grey on this subject and for any one person to be right is impossible.

Echoing what's already been said. When I started my prices went up and one week I was doing a wedding I charged £800 for and two months later one for £400 because they booked me long before my prices went up. The flipside is some may decide it's not for them and get a 9-5 job instead.

It's a tough call with inherent risks whichever way you go.

As a professional, I find shooting for friends and family the hardest

As a "third party" I can easily command respect and get the job done" As a friend or member of the family I find I am instantly on the back foot, and have to work a bit harder at getting people to do what I want

In practical terms, my comment is not particularly relevant to my style of shooting, however if you are looking for lots of group shots, my comment becomes even more relevant

I tend to have a "I am working attitude" which means when I shoot for friends and family "I am working" That means I am NOT a guest. I guess others can switch this on or off through the day

For this reason, especially when you are starting out, shooting for friends and family can be the worst sort of wedding to shoot

It is indeed a tough call, will have to sit OH down and have a serious talk about it. I just worry that he'll think about the cost more than the actual end result. I suppose we'll need to get used to making tough decisions in the months to come!