G20 protest - The Man who died (sens)

Now guess how much I believe that now? ?

It was the youtube one that I saw, the one with the slowed down bit?

I dont even see him flinching though, which makes me wonder if he was actually hit. Although, the way he is walking on the clip does make him look as though he is drunk, so maybe he didnt feel it.

I feel so sorry for the family, this man has gone, and they need answers.

But so have the police. And don't ever forget that the last time the police killed someone in controversial circumstances, the official police version was subsequently proved to be total and absolute bollocks. Remember how Jean-Charles de Menezes ignored verbal warnings, leapt over the ticket barrier and dashed down to the platform in a highly suspicious manner?

So is it any wonder that the press - and, let's be honest, anyone who hasn't been utterly brainwashed - won't accept the official police version at face value this time round? Especially when it's already starting to fall apart in the face of video evidence?

I am assuming this is in response to my post.

I'm not saying that if fault is found then the person should not be punished. I am trying to point out that it may not be quite as clear cut as we would be lead to believe or the conclusions we are all guilty of jumping to. We think that he was an "innocent" because that is what the press has told us and it is perfectly possible that he was. However I would reiterate that in my opinion (and that is all it is after all) we don't have enough info.

I am also aware I am not totally up to date on what has been said by the met etc ..... the effect of working too much!!!

oooo yes. on top of being a coke fiend and rapist.

His poor,poor family. look at the way they had to fight just to get a fair inquest.

I am another who has watched again and again and i am really surprised that the actions on the footage were enough to cause death - i did wonder if he was a bit out of it from something that had happened before - but obviously my knowledge of medicine and pathology go as far as holby city and silent witness ?

anyway - regardless of any of that - shove or punch wtf did he think he (the policeman) was doing - i was even more sickened by the sight of his colleagues all standing there ignoring what had happened - particularly the man fiddling with the dog rather than helping or perhaps indicating to his colleague he was out of order

I do completely agree that we are probably not looking at the true picture, and i am sure there are things which we will never know about. I completely agree with you in that respect.

Wouldn't have mattered if he WAS a protester, he was walking with his hands in his pockets away from the police. Saying he wasn't even a protester smacks of the excuse one of my school frineds got for a receiving a beating "Oh, we thought you were a paki!" He was Gibraltan, should it matter?

Iam Tomlinson was an alcoholic. Do you think it possible that the amount he drank may have contributed to his death? That is a genuine question and not trying in any way to justify or excuse the policeman's actions?

Well it would explain why something that didnt look like a huge wallop could lead to such bad internal injuries i guess

was he not a protester?

Contributed, yes. In the same way as having only one lung would contribute to your death if someone shot you in the remaining one.

I'm not sure I agree with you.

I'm asking if his abdomen could have already been compromised by his drinking/other factors and the policeman's push/shove/hit exasperated an existing problem. Asking this does not mean I don't think the policeman was in the wrong.

No, he was making his way home from work....but...should that matter? What if he had been a protester, would he have deserved it?

Agreed- which is why an enquiry is appropriate and why, if he's charged, there will be a trial (obviously)- of course there might be other facts that haven't yet come to light and, if these are relevant, it's vital that they come out. What shocked me about Peanut's post was that she thought the victim's failure to move along quickly enough and the fact he walked in a wonky line could justify the use of force.

I completely accept that people make mistakes and that policemen come under a lot of stress. I'm not sure that saying "it was a mistake" is an adequate response though, nor is stress justification for an illegal assault. To my mind these are all questions for a jury and the guy should be charged- there's certainly a prima facie case of illegal assault. If he has a defence (such as having made a mistake, which can be a defence in law) he can argue it.

I don't know whether the dead man's alcoholism had any effect on his injuries. It certainly doesn't affect the policeman's culpability or lack thereof (eggshell skull rule)

Errm, did I say that?

No, I know what you're asking.

And yes his drinking could have made some of his internals more prone to rupture than would have been the case if he were 'healthy'.

Sorry, no, I shouldn't have insinuated. Apologies.

Is it possible that the people doing the CPR on him caused the abdo injuries? Would an autopsy show this? Misplaced compressions of the chest area so to speak?

[disclaimer] I am only suggesting this as a possibility, rather than making excuses for any wrongdoing.

No problem, just was worried.?

I would have thought that CPR injuries (which are quite common I think) would be thoracic and I'm not sure how likely it is that it could be transferred to the abdomen - but I guess these are all things that the coronor will be looking at.

I think one of the things that disturbs me most about all this is that I'm trusting the police less and less.

I've been brought up to trust the police and to trust authority. I know many would consider me hopelessly naive in this respect, but it's unsettling, to say the least, when that trust is shaken.

I'm not a medic but I think that heavy drinking can cause an increased likelihood to internal bleeding. Prepared to be corrected by someone who actually knows what they are talking about!

In terms of legal culpability, it doesn't make a difference anyway - you "take your victim as you find them" - this link explains a bit more - even though it is about civil law I understand the principle of the "thin skull rule" applies in criminal law also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

I've managed to pop back on before the sailing. I apologise to anyone that thought I was a complete *** by my comments, I wasn't meaning to be, Its just my opinion based on experience. I spoke to a current PSU officer last night (a mate) and they actually spoke to me about things on the video that I had missed.. some of them explain maybe why the cop was so agitated in the first place one of many being that the first inital baton strike missed, from the high that the baton was drawn from and the speed of the delivery and the way that the baton is constructed for effect, he doubted that the victim would have remained up on two legs, I never said that the force of the shove was justified, and I don't like to think that anyone thinks I was brain washed in the police. I left a good career because I refused to have that happen to me and therefore because of my free thinking my career was going side ways, unfortunately there are still dinosaurs ruling in certain forces and I was a damn good cop that did alot of good, I never lied, decieved or cheated anyone that I dealt with and comments that suggest otherwise sting.

I don't think we will ever get the full story, I am assuming that photos of the victims back will be published at any trial and that is where it will be obvious if his baton was in his hands when he shoved the victim.

I'm not going to go back and justify every point that was made, I don't see what good that will do anybody, but I didn't make my comments lightly and they are that, my comments, my opinions and my thoughts on the matter, just because they are the opposite of most others that posted, then so be it, as I posted last night, I posted my comments rather badly presented but thats what you get when your one handed typing with a 10 week old on the other arm and maybe had I thought better before typing, my arguements would have had fact or anything else I was accused of not supplying, but going back i would have still posted, I'm not apologising for that, its the way I came across that I am. Anyway, that has to be it, I'm off on my holidays so ta ra for now.