Is there anyone with knowledge of social services around?

Having been on the receiving end of this recently, I would guess she will be arrested and my advice is to say absolutely nothing, might be a cliche but no comment to absolutely everything and a good solicitor.

The child will forget all about this in 6 months time, probably want to drop charges but the police have their domestic violence targets to hit and will not drop it if they think they have a chance of conviction even against a child's own mother.

What utter codswallop.?

I know there are people on here who will give much better advice than I could muster so I'll just hope things get sorted out.

However, re. what you said about the lad, I don't think clothes and gadgets are what children really want, or at least what they need - they need security and love and support. It sounds like maybe he's been pushed back and forth and is missing some of the security...

Social Services will likely refer the matter to CAIT (Police Child Abuse Investigation Team) and they will have a strategy discussion in order to determine whether it will be a single or joint agency sc47 child protection investigation. Yes, N did assault mother first, but a punch in the mouth in retaliation may be deemed to be common assault. This will be determined by the conclusion of the Child Protection Medical and whether N is prepared to be "ABE interviewed" (Achieving Best Evidence).

Now, it may be that N retracts/refuses to give a statement, and CAIT would be unlikely to proceed with an arrest/prosecution in these circumstances. The most mother would get would be a "warning" with regards to inappropriate physical chastisement. Children's services would undertake an assessment and part of that would be to consider whether the younger child is at risk. It is extremely unlikely that he would be removed. The assessment would also focus on what support services may be needed. However, if it was deemed that there is an ongoing risk of further assault, a child protection case conference may be convened to formally consider the risks and whether the child(ren) should be subject of a Child Protection Plan.

He does have lots of love & support & they have all have so much fun as a family, J got him into a better school when he moved back to her, away from all his old friends who all smoked & got stoned. I do think your right about the security, Ive been saying this for years to her. I just hope that socail services dont get her arrested. Im so worried.

Before I start - I am not a Social Worker. I have worked in social services however for several years, some of which were in a child protection team, some of which were with other children's teams. I now work in Adult Services and have been out of Children's Services for three years.

First of all - don't panic. They may well not be coming round to arrest her. They may well come round to take a statement / ask her to go to the station to make a statement.

Even if they do arrest her, she is not immediately considered guilty - she will be interviewed etc. make statements. If she has injuries from the assault by her son, these can be documented. If there were witnesses, their details can be noted. If there is physical evidence in the home, she can also report that in her statement and ask for it to be noted / documented.

With regard to Social Services - you have to understand that they are required to take the view of the child as truth. However, most social workers know full well what the reality of situations like this is. There will almost certainly be Child Protection investigation started - this is not a matter of choice. It's the law when a serious non accidental injury occurs to a child. The investigation will cover the 13 year old and any other children in the family home. Depending on how quickly interviews and assessments occur, they may leave the other boy with her (if they can see there is no risk), they may ask that he stops elsewhere until they can establish risk levels.

There are a whole lot of ifs, buts and maybes, but you can certainly expect there to be a lot of questions. Lots of forms and an awful lot of what will seem unecessarily intrusive involvement. It is important that your sister tries to remain calm, and complies with as much of what they ask of her as she can. She needs to get her side of the story across to them as clearly as possible. There is a chance both boys may end up on a child protection register of some sorts (I believe Delicious Devil Woman could be of real help here - she really knows her stuff and still works in the environment) - if this happens, it will only be until facts can be established and investigations can take place. If there is no reason for them to remain on there, then they will be taken off as soon as possible.

A lot depends on local protocol - although there are standards. Your sister is entitled to copies of all paperwork and if the process does get underway, she will find specialist legal advice helpful.

HTH - and hopefully DDW will be along at some point - she really knows her stuff.

I have been along (see above!) but you have added further salient points to my overview of likely action-I am on the hoof atm, but wanted to respond.

I deal with these situations as a Duty Manager of a Referral and Assessment Team on an almost daily basis. I would echo what KJX said about being cooperative and engaging with the assessment process. The "incident" will not be considered in isolation, and children are removed from the family even temporarily pending the outcome of an investigation, as a last resort.

Thank you for this DDW.

Ive just phoned J to tell her & she had just got off the phone from SS. They are coming in the morning at 10.30 as N hasnt seen a dr yet. The social worker has to go to see the police before then but she says that the police wont be coming with her to Js house. They asked what her relationship was with her younger son & said that N will be at his dads tonight & its upto mum& dad to decide where N lives. Im hoping that this is a good sign that J wont be arrested.

Thanks again.

Sounds a silly thing, but please tell your sister not to panic if they are later than they said they would be - most childrens teams have to operate under huge caseloads and not enough staff, so timekeeping can be one of the things that slip - it shouldn't mean anything ominous, just that they are running late.

Are you able to go to her to support her?

Thank you KJX.

Ive read this to J too & she is starting to calm a little. I knew I would fantastic advice on here.

Thank you both so, so very much for this. J (& I) really appreciates it.

Unfortunatly I cant get the time off but she has her OH there with her. Ive texted my boss to say that if I have to go to look after my nephew (if shes arrested) Im going.

Er no it's not codswallop and my poor mother has a common assult on her 53 year unblemished history.

My brother hit her first and a 16 year olds word was taken over that of me, my sister and my mother who did hit him, but if we'd known what was coming next she would never have admitted to, the police and CPS were beyond belief.

I'm really sorry your mum had to go through this - was it a while ago?

And tbh - she did hit him. She will have been viewed as an adult hitting a child. It's sad the circumstances weren't take into account.

We were in Crown Court last Tuesday where a guilty plea for common assult was accepted from a 53 year old woman in exchange for dropping ABH - yes ABH - he's 6'4" 15 stone and lies through his teeth, of course he's back home and all is forgotten.

The CPS had no interest in the fact that this was a parent/child relationship, unfortunately my poor mother's statement to the police was yes I hit him and if he behaves like that again, i'd hit him again. How naive.

He tried to retract his statement twice, the police refused, the CPS sumonds him as a witness, as I said he was completely over it, back at school and getting on better than he had for months with school and family. The police were only interested in their results, the barrister admitided as much.

My advice to the OP is tread very carefully and say nothing without advice.

With respect to the horrible experience your family have been through, I would advise the OP (based on experience of multiple CP cases) to co-operate fully and try to keep calm.

Your brother is a child - a hulking 16 year old is entitled, under law to the same protection as any other child. Galling as that might have been for you. It is the law that is the issue here, rather than it's application.

Keeping calm is vital, along with being very careful before assuming that common sense will provail and that the police will see what is in the best interests of the said 13 year old, they won't they have a different agenda, had we known that we would have still co operated but been rather more careful about taking advice before confiding all in the lovely police lady that spoke to my mother for three hours at 4am.

Oh and I agree he is entitled to protection, as was my mother from the hulking great child that came at her in front of 3 other witness's. Still she forgave him we all moved on.

Obviously, this is so recent and raw for you all, but you did indicate in an earlier response that your mother did not express regret for her actions and stated she would do so again in a similar situation. People say things in the heat of the moment, however, I have personally known parents to be completely unremorseful/in denial, in the face of quite overwhelming evidence of assault for which there is little mitigation. I am not suggesting this is the case with your mother (you have not given any detail of how she retaliated, and what injury your brother sustained) but as she was originally going to be charged with ABH before accepting and pleading guilty to the lesser charge of common assault, usually the impact/severity has to be more than fleeting (eg slight reddening from a "clip around the ear") to satisfy ABH criteria.

He is back home, and hopefully your mother and brother can repair their relationship.

Indeed there is lots she and I would do differently, she reacted in the heat of the moment to the misguided belief that one is allowed to defend oneself in ones own home.

They will of course mend their relationship I really hadn't planned to go into such detail but as I said I would advise the op not to be as naive as we were and end up in a situation which was not in the child's interests, he could have ended up in care, ceratinly not in the public interest my mother is no danger to anyone and all because my brother was behaving like a twat one night and my mum wrongly believed the police would see the situation for what it was. No doubt if he goes on to assult anyone outside the family, they'll look at my mums conviction and blame the parents.

Fair enough, that you don't want to elaborate on what your mother actually did, on here. You maintain she was treated unfairly/disproportionately in relation to the actual "crime" against your brother-without more detail, it's difficult to give a view/opinion.

I am sure with hindsight you all would have reacted differently. The 3 adults there might have intervened and stepped in quicker after your brother first hit your mother and got between them/called the police etc, before the situation further escalated. I am sure your brother too, on some level, regrets raising his hand to his mother and all the trouble that has ensued.

If your brother has anger management probs per se, I hope he is getting some support, although young people can often be resistant to engage with such services. I also hope you mother has had support around strategies for dealing with any similar incidents which may occur in the future.

BellaPasta, I'm sorr you've had such a rotten experience.

What I was disputing was that the police have "targets" of people they have to arrest and it's not the police who decide whether or not to prosecute a person.

With respect Zebra those were the exact words used by the prosecutions barrister who really could not believe he was expected to pursue the case in crown court, twice the prosecution barrister asked the CPS to bind over to keep the peace, but they wanted a conviction for their figures. My mother was looking at serving 9 months in prison, can you imagine what that cost the tax payer.

My brother got grabbed around the neck by my mother and slapped around the back of the head after he belted her around the face. Not a mark on him hence the charges being reduced at the last minute. Horrible for anyone to witness or be involved in but ultimately not in the publics interest to spend thousands of pounds debating in a court room.

BP, it isn't about getting a conviction for the sake of the figures, if it is in the public interest to prosecute and there is a good possibility of a conviction then they will prosecute.

Obviously no one can comment directly on your circumstances but let me assure you the police do not have targets to reach in cases like these