Josef Fritzl case (poss sens)

I haven't heard a lot about the case, I try to avoid the details, tbh. From what I have heard my own gut feel is that he is insane. These are just not the actions of a sane person. I know people can be evil, but I feel there's a veyr fine line between evil and mad

L
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The thing is, from her testimony, it's quite clear that he knew what he was doing and he would have to be "sane" enough to keep the deception hidden from the world for so long.

I makes me angry that me might avoid full incarceration/punishment whatever by now claiming he was insane. This pre-meditated, planned and required continuous logic and thought to keep it going.

At least there is some prickling of conscience though by pleading guilty.

I think they've said he's got a personality disorder, that he knew what he was doing but that he felt an overwhelming need to be controlling triggered by the circumstances of his own childhood.

I just hope the children are now in better places with loving families.

I heard on the news this morning that he changed his plea on advice of his lawyers. It would make him seem more human if he admited to all of it. Something along the lines of: admit your guilt and people might show more sympathy on you. Whereas if he denied certain charges, and everybody knows he's guilty anyway, it would make him look even more wicked.

I was going to say I thought his childhood can't have been great, it's skewed his notion of what's normal. He must have been greatly abused in one way or another to visit this on his own child.

Haven't been following the exact details but it seems that it's all about control with him. There was an image on the news where he went to meet the press, but covered his face with a folder and wouldn't speak to them. Everything is on his terms so I suspect the guilty plea comes from realising he was bound to be found guilty anyway - this way he is controlling things still. I doubt it's got anything at all to do with concern for his daughter.

I agree with this but I think the fact that he maintained a family and business life, had the 'sense' to shop in bulk at an out of town cash and carry, was of mind to concoct an entire backstory for her whereabouts and fool the authorities into believing that she'd abandoned two of the children leaving him and his wife to adopt them, the length of time he was able to maintain his secret - these and many other actions are of a sane and calculating mind IMO. From what I've read it was all about power, the power he held over his daughter and the power of holding a secret so enormous that people wouldn't even suspect anything.

A wider concern seems to be the number of incidents like this in Austria and the authorities tendency to try and sweep them under the carpet.

x

Its an incredible case and so very sad for his children. How would you ever live a normal life after that?

Has he admitted to the murder charge as well?

BWC - that's exactly what I was trying to say in my post - you said it much better.

Flaming Nora - yes, he's pleading guilty to everything

not necessarily. a lot of abusers have been abused themselves, but not all.

I haven't really been keeping up to date with this. Is his wife still alive? What's happening to her?

How many incidents? I can think of just two: this one and Wolfgang Prikopil. In other words, even more statistically negligible than the number of British kids murdered by British paedophiles, which is pretty negligible to begin with.

As for Fritzl, the whole trial and sentencing was a bit moot - from the moment of his arrest, it was pretty clear that he was never going to be released: the only real question was whether he'd spend the rest of his life in a normal prison or a psychiatric hospital. And I'm guessing the latter: if he isn't insane, it's hard to imagine the yardstick by which one might judge such things.

He's not insane in the sense of not knowing what he was doing or knowing what he was doing was wrong.

But looking at the news, it seems to have a personality disorder that are probably related to his background of neglect/trauma.

Does it mean he should not be punished? Nope, and I don't think there's anything to suggest he's not going to spend the rest of life in custody.

But it also doens't mean that he shouldn't receive any psychiatric care he needs either.

Evil is just a word to describe horrific actions that normal people can't fathom, IMO.

this is sort of what I mean. I don't thing insanity precludes him from doing all this ina planned and methodical way. In fact I think the fact that he was apparently the same 100% of the time makes him more likely to be insane, not less

L
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What is his childhood history? i haven't heard a huge amount about it, other than his mum having him late in life and not really wanting him...

His mother raised him on his own, his father left when he was four. Apparently, his mother beat him regularly and was controlling, didn't let him have friends, and he spent time in foster care too.

At least two others that I know of. An Austrian lawyer kept her daughters captive in their home for 7 years (the other escapes me right now but when I'll post if I remember):

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:zMyxMimesOAJ:www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251389,00.html+Austrian+female+lawyer+captive+daughters&cd=128&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a

I've read a couple of books and articles that examine Austrian society and the concerns seem to be less about the numbers and more to do with how long the captivities continued for undiscovered. Don't get me wrong, all societies have incidents like this to one extreme or another but the Austrian government have come under immense pressure from it's people to find out why this particular type of crime happens and remains undetected for such long periods. Inevitably, thoughts go back to the Nazi era, not something I've explored in depth but I find the country and it's history fascinating.

x

I can't comprehend what this man has done to his family, there's clearly some sort of issue going on, but I'm afraid there'll be no sympathy from me due to a tough childhood. There doesn't always have to be an explanation either.

I hope he rots.

But he wasn't the same 100% of the time. Many people considered him to be a charming, funny, family man - a joker even. Others knew him to be controlling and manipulative. It would seem he was careful about who he showed what side of himself to. Which does allude to a personality disorder OR that he was a master manipulator.

x

It's hard to tell if he was sane or not but to my mind, I think the change of plea has come about because he didn't think his daughter would testify. I think he has continued to try and control her and making her take the stand was his final attempt at control. Similar to the rapist that chooses to self represent so he can cross-examine the victim himself.

Sorry, BWC, wasn't aware and am not really following it.

I would still personally feel that this person is not sane

L
xx

She didn't take the stand, her evidence has been pre-recorded and shown on a video screen. Apparently it's so harrowing they're only letting the jury listen to up to two hours of it a day.

Agreed, no sympathy here either.

His lawyer has said he's not capable of showing empathy - is that not one of the things that could be evidence of a psychopathic disorder? Which, I understand, doesn't fall into the accepted legal definition of "insanity" (at least not the one we use in legal proceedings in this country)

TBH, I wouldn't want to have to decide whether he was sane/insane. His actions are so incomprehensible that it hurts to think about it.

x

Would that make him a sociopath? Which actually, seems to fit.

I loathe the excuse trotted out each time of 'a tragic childhood".

A friend had a horrendous childhood, but she and siblings have said they would not inflict this on their children and if anything are too soft and giving to their kids.

You can use it as an excuse, or as a reason to behave differently. Surely if your treatment was so bad, you would not want your own to experience the same thing.

I also heard his defence lawyer saying 'any prison sentence will take away his life"....amazing comment considering Fritzl took away the prime years for his daughter and the childhood of the children. (As an aside, how screwed up must the kids selected for life 'upstairs" feel?)

So he's gone from controlling his daughter and her children to having forced his way into the minds of the jury and the legal teams - sounds like he still successfully manipulating people to me.

Nothing has been said that makes me think he's mad as in a mental illness caused by disruption to brain chemistry, (at least partly) helpable by medication. Schizophrenia, for example, seems to be some kind of organic brain disease; you can see changes in brain structure on MRI scans. I don't think there's any suggestion of this in this case. In the case of psychotic illness I think people can be truly not responsible for their own actions; they are living in another, often very frightening, world.

Then you get onto how you are made and how you are brought up, a combination of which can lead to characteristic abnormal patterns of responding to events - a personality disorder. Medicines make no difference as it's not thought to be an organic illness. Like others have said, sociopath would fit quite well.

So then, if you are made and brought up in a way that leads you to be prone to acting in certain ways, how responsible are you for your actions?

I say we are all still responsible for our own actions. Some people might find it harder than others to avoid evil. But they are still bound to do so. And evil does still exist.

He's been found guilty of all charges. Good.

Can't see how they could decide any other tbh. I think they made the right decision.

And sentenced to life imprisonment - in a secure psychiatric facility rather than a prison, but I suppose this was inevitable.

Deborah Orr is typically thoughtful (and thought-provoking) in today's Independent: