Lending money - UPDATE

If I had the money spare and it was someone I cared about then I would do it


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[hard faced cow icon] No I wouldn't [hard faced cow icon]

If they've had help in the past and they're still about to go under then it hasn't really helped them has it? Sometimes it doesn't help by giving people money, they need to learn how to manage without handouts.

quote:Originally posted by Puddled
If I had the money spare and it was someone I cared about then I would do it


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id="quote">wss

i think when you lend money you only lend what you can afford not to have

Torn between those 2 replies.

quote:Originally posted by Peaches
Torn between those 2 replies.

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Just reading the other reply I guess I have to say if it were my immediate family ie. parents or my sister then I may think differently but it's hard to imagine because they're unlikely to be in that situation.

Depends on who it is, and the circumstances. its purely a personal decision.

It's a really hard one to answer without knowing the amounts involved, how much you care for the people, the consequences of them not getting the money, the availability of other sources...

We vowed never to lend my BiL money, but when he couldn't afford nappies for the children we caved. But he didn't pay us back (again) and we have said that we really, really won't if he asks again. Hopefully we will stick to it!

It's a tough call, but my heart is saying give him the money. Head is saying stay well clear

Family, yes. Friends, it depends- 1. on the friend in question 2. on the circs of the poverty and 3. on the circs surrounding previous inability to repay. I would probably still lend though, on balance.

It would depend for me on

1. who they are,
2. whether they have tried all other aspects of doing it themselves, 3. how much it was
4. whether I could afford to wave goodbye to the money myself

Its a tough one. My OH has lent money in the past to both his uncle and his mother, both of which were in severe financial difficulties. He lent both of them several thousand pounds, and has not had any of it back, and probably never will. Although he regrets it in some ways as that money would have been invaluble to us now, he says he would still have done it, as they are his family, and he couldn't have watched them go under.

It's my brother

He has been lent money worth more than some of your homes as he has no business sense whatsoever. He works very, very hard, but not smart. Have tried to give him business advice, draw up plans, forecast for him etc., but he listens then goes off and does his own thing. Definitely wouldn't give him anything towards the business ... even though he now doesn't have enough cashflow to pay his bills (this isn't the first time)

But today his fiance's visa has come through so she can fly over to the UK from Australia to help him sell up (house, business, everything), get married, and then start a new life in Oz.

He needs the money to fly to Oz to collect her, help her put her household into storage and then both fly back to the UK. He also needs money to pay his debtors.

Mum is again lending him money. Some of which we have given her. But he needs more, and the money we gave Mum was for her.

That reads like I'm asking whether you agree about Mum lending him money. That wasn't my question .. more, would YOU (ie, not your Mum), in those circumstances, lend him the money?

Well,

1) he does not need to fly to aus. to help her put her stuff in to storage, i m sure she has friends, or could have someone else do it - family etc?

2) in this case, i would tell him he could have the money to pay his creditors, but i would have him sign a contract relating to the money, and his intentions in terms of house sale. i would also want some or all of the money back, though this is dependent on how much if any equity is in the house.

either way, i d want a contract, family or not.

In those circumstances no I dont think I would. Can't they both just save the money and sort their own affairs out before he moves over there?

Is she paying her own fare? I don't think i'd help to be honest. He'll never learn how to handle money if people keep bailing him out.

Pay creditors, not debtors! See, I'm getting in a mucking fuddle over the whole thing already!

The reason he is going over there ... sheesh, this is a long story.

Short version.

They dated over 20 years ago. She moved from Oz to UK to be with him, taking her then 3 year old daughter with her. Things didn't work out (due to the business, my Dad .. yada yada) so she went back and they broke up.

But they never lost touch.

He has been going back to Oz on a regular basis for the past 10 years. He spent his best years over there, so all his real friends are there, hence his desire to start over. He was introduced to a woman about 4/5 years ago and they fell in love. Due to her family situation (she has sons [a widow] and her sister dying leaving her looking after her nephew she couldn't pack up and move to the UK, even though she loved my brother deeply.

He wouldn't sell up and move over there. Don't ask me why - we have tried and tried to help him see sense, and it's far more complicated than I can put down here.

Anyway, him and this woman broke up over Christmas as it was tearing them apart not being able to be together.

Along comes ex-girlfriend of 20 years ago. She is prepared to give up her life over there, go to the UK to help him sell up, and re-start their lives together after all this time. He feels it is the least he can do to go and help her finalise everything (giving up job, home, family, friends), especially as this has all been since Christmas. Quite a shock if you were her family, eh?!

That's why he needs the money.

Quite honestly, if he didn't have her coming over, none of us are sure he'd pull through. He is in such dire straits over the business, we're not sure he would have enough mental strength to carry on. With life [V]

Actually, just putting that down in writing has helped me make a decision. I couldn't have it on my conscience if it came to that.

And now I'm crying! Pah!

Hmm, sounds a bit airy fairy to me. Does he actually want to be with this new woman or does he actually still love the other one?

Not that that makes any difference to the money issue.

quote:Originally posted by Peaches
Pay creditors, not debtors! See, I'm getting in a mucking fuddle over the whole thing already!

The reason he is going over there ... sheesh, this is a long story.

Short version.

They dated over 20 years ago. She moved from Oz to UK to be with him, taking her then 3 year old daughter with her. Things didn't work out (due to the business, my Dad .. yada yada) so she went back and they broke up.

But they never lost touch.

He has been going back to Oz on a regular basis for the past 10 years. He spent his best years over there, so all his real friends are there, hence his desire to start over. He was introduced to a woman about 4/5 years ago and they fell in love. Due to her family situation (she has sons [a widow] and her sister dying leaving her looking after her nephew she couldn't pack up and move to the UK, even though she loved my brother deeply.

He wouldn't sell up and move over there. Don't ask me why - we have tried and tried to help him see sense, and it's far more complicated than I can put down here.

Anyway, him and this woman broke up over Christmas as it was tearing them apart not being able to be together.

Along comes ex-girlfriend of 20 years ago. She is prepared to give up her life over there, go to the UK to help him sell up, and re-start their lives together after all this time. He feels it is the least he can do to go and help her finalise everything (giving up job, home, family, friends), especially as this has all been since Christmas. Quite a shock if you were her family, eh?!

That's why he needs the money.

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But in the first post you said they were going to live in Oz so how is she giving up her friends and family? It all seems a bit quick if he only split up with the last one at Christmas because they could not be together and now he is ready to marry someone four months later, albeit he has known her for some time. Seems all rather rushed? I don't see why he needs to go there to help her pack up or why she needs to come here to help him pack up. Are they going to live in the UK or Oz?

You say there is little chance of getting the money back?

Would you consider giving him the money? To me, lending with no chance of getting it back amounts to giving it. Is that something you would be comfortable with?

I think I'd be looking at it as a choice between giving him the money or not giving him the money.

Sorry just reread your last post Peaches and see that she would come to the UK. Still think it is all rushed. If they can't afford for him to fly over there, then she needs to pack up by herself and he should use the money to pay off his debts so that they have a fresh start when she gets here.

I think that I would give him the money to pay towards his debts but as Nick said, I would want a guarantee that I would get it back when the house was sold. I wouldn't however lend it for him to go to Oz.

Also, i dont understand two things here

why he needs to go and help her pack
why she needs to come to the UK to "help him sell up"

why cant he do deals with his creditors, then sell, then go and join her over there? i dont get it. it seems like unneccessary cost to me and really, i d rather help him sell and help him do deals with people than give him money, though i might give him the airfare to get over there when he s sold as a gift.

And presumably these regular trips to Oz over the past 10 years have racked up a fair amount of expense.

Nope, I'm convinced lending/giving him money is not the right move. It sounds like he needs to grow up and become an adult and sort things out for himself without somebody holding his hand.

Sorry if i'm sounding harsh.

As others have said - he does not *need* to go over and help her pack her life up - he wants to but he can't afford to, end of as far as I can see.

I'm slightly confused by the whole thing of her selling up and coming here and then him selling up and then where are they basing themselves (could be me not reading properly as supposedly I am working right now!) Surely they are either living in the UK or Oz - in which case only one of them needs to be packing their life up iyswim.

But what it boils down to is that you probably have to see the money as a gift - and do you want to give him this gift when there may be other ways of helping him (not that I can think of any off the top of my head)

Long and rambling - sorry!

I would be a no from me, Peaches.

My answer to your original q might have been yes, if it was a sufficiently small amount to be regarded as a gift (wouldn't even pretend it was a loan if I knew the person wouldn't pay it back).

But in light of the details, no.

It's a tricky one. For those who say they would lend to family, it can still lead to an almighty mess. H and I loaned my sister £1500 last Summer due to a series of events occuring that led my sister to be in floods of tears saying that she, her H and baby son were in dire straits and she couldn't see a way out of the mess. We loaned them the money on the understanding that they would pay it back this year when things had sorted themselves out.
There has been no mention of the loan so far this year and they still seem to be in an endless cycle of problem after problem. We have privately decided that we may as well write this money off, luckily we could afford it.
What has annoyed us far more however is money she owes us for a short break last September in which we agreed to pay 1/3rd each (my Gran being the other 1/3rd)towards a family holiday to celebrate our Mum's 60th. Her contribution was £120. This was all agreed via e-mails and phone conversations. About 1 month after the holiday, after a couple of gentle reminders she sent a cheque to me. It bounced. I told her, she claimed she couldn't understand why and said she would sort it out with the bank. I've never heard another mention of it.
This smaller amount being owed has annoyed us the most, especially my H. It wasn't a loan and whenever they are in the same room together it's like there is an elephant in the room that no-one mentions ☹️
Sorry for the waffle about my circumstances, what I'm trying to say is, if you don't think you will be paid back and can afford to gift it then do it. If you can't afford not to have it back then don't do it. If you do decide to lend it, make sure you have it in writing, even if it is your brother. ?

I'm not surprised you're all confused! It's all happened far too fast for us to comprehend too.

Why does he need to go to help her? Good question. Because he feels 'it's the least he can do'. Other than that, I don't know why.

Why does she need to help him sell his business? Because he can't. He is in such trouble he can't see the wood for the trees and doesn't know where to start. As for equity in his house - there isn't any. BUT there is equity in the business property. But I fear that at the rate he is going, when that is sold there won't be much left. If any.

UK or Oz? She will be coming to the UK. Stipulations on the visa is that that marry in the UK within 6 months. He doesn't forsee going back to Oz for a couple of years. He has a year left with the current tenants who use part of the building (who he sold part of the business to some years ago) and doesn't want to cut the contract short.

We're not convinced this lady knows the whole story. In fact, I'm not sure we really do either.

All I know is he is my brother. He is depressed. He has made himself ill with stress and worry. He looks anorexically thin.

I hide lots of aspects of my life from him as I managed to get out of it all. For which I know he resents. But I can't help him feeling like that, just make sure I don't make things worse by rubbing it in.

Did that answer the questions?

Partly.

i still dont see why he needs to go voer there and help her "pack". its just more expense, and takes him away from his obligations here (which is what he might be looking for if he s depressed).

can someone here not intervene and help him?

Exactly - I'd say he needs practical rather than financial support. Someone to get him to his doctor and address his health issues, assist with the practical side of winding up the business etc. And until that's done, he'd be mad to go jetting off to Oz and certainly to get married.

If you are happy to gift the money then do so. Don't see it as a loan - it doesn't sound as if you'll get it back.

Mr P and I aren't 100% sure this isn't a marriage of convenience, but we don't feel we are in a position to actually ask the question.

All we know is he would sink without someone to support him - emotionally. As for financially, well, if he sold NOW there would be some money. But he can't see that. All he sees are the debts, the loans, the creditors. He can't see that even though the business itself isn't worth a whole lot, the property is. The rest of the assets aren't either. On-going concern and goodwill, perhaps a little.

Mum has said that him knowing she is giving up everything (for at least the time being - however long that will be) he is managing to hang on by a thread.

When you've seen your older brother sob so hard his body was racking on Christmas Day, it really does pull at your heart strings. But, as Mr P said, if we lent/gave him the money, would this be like a gambler coving up their debts and he not tell her the whole truth?