Lending money - UPDATE

Giving him money without practical help will be hopeless, sorry.

he ll spend it and not address the real issues. he needs some help if you ask me, both mental health wise, and practically speaking.

the flights alone are no reason to give him the money in my view. from what you ve said, its just not neccessary. he does not NEED to go to aus to help her pack.

quote:Originally posted by NickJ
partly.

i still dont see why he needs to go voer there and help her "pack". its just more expense, and takes him away from his obligations here (which is what he might be looking for if he s depressed).

can someone here not intervene and help him?

id="quote">

We tried many times when we were in the UK. The only person who he will turn to, and then that's only when he is at rock bottom, is Mum. He won't seek other help. When advice is given I don't know whether it's due to ignorance, pig-headedness, lack of understanding or belief he can actually sort it out himself, he won't take it.

I don't know why he has to go either. I rang him on Sunday (he didn't know I knew all the details) to ask him how things were (he had told me about her) and he said he wanted to go to collect her. Now I know he can't afford the flights, it's a different story. Guess he told her he would do that and now doesn't know how to tell her he can't??

I think it was a case of them thinking her visa would be delayed further. And now it's been cleared it's panic stations.

Ok. then no, i wouldnt give him anything apart from practical help. i d offer it, if he didnt take it up, he s on his own. giving him money wont help one jot.

"You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"

Try getting someone to seek help - mentally, financially, healthwise - who doesn't want it. It's head-bangingly frustrating when it stares you in the face they need it, but they won't accept it.

What can we do from here? Apart from wire money over?

I have to point out that talking to him (and Mum), dealing with all his problems and issues takes me to a bad place too. Right back to my old life. I have to protect myself, but it's hard to do that when I get all the information from Mum. And then I worry about it. Which, of course, I think is the point.

I'm hoping she might be the sort of woman who will sort him out. He needs a Doctor. He needs a counsellor. He needs someone to wind the business up.

Practical advice/help has been refused. 'He knows best'.

I honestly feared the call to say he'd been 'found' ?

But this might be his salvation.

Someone asked if he still loves the other woman. Yes, I think he does. And she does him too. It's breaking his heart that he hasn't told her yet. I don't know why he hasn't - he just said on Sunday that he couldn't right now. She is dealing with her sister's suicide, so has enough to cope with.

? for you Peaches

I can see that giving him money is not going to really help him. But if it was my brother I quite possibly would give it to him anyway (assuming I had it) for my own peace of mind, because I would worry about them. One of my brothers in particular has done some fairly stupid things but I could never tell him he was on his own.

Thanks everyone. You've all given me food for thought. Much appreciated. I'll keep you posted ..






Now .. about my niece and that side of the family ......... ?

(does anyone have a family resembling anything like mine?!)

quote:Originally posted by Sunset21
[hard faced cow icon] No I wouldn't [hard faced cow icon]

If they've had help in the past and they're still about to go under then it hasn't really helped them has it? Sometimes it doesn't help by giving people money, they need to learn how to manage without handouts.

id="quote">

WSS

Call me stingy but i too think that people need to learn the value of money, particularly nowadays when everyone seems to be hit by increases in interest rates and such like.

If people can't afford they shouldn't have, this is the philosophy i've been bought up with and thus far it's worked for me.

quote:Originally posted by chids

quote:Originally posted by Sunset21
[hard faced cow icon] No I wouldn't [hard faced cow icon]

If they've had help in the past and they're still about to go under then it hasn't really helped them has it? Sometimes it doesn't help by giving people money, they need to learn how to manage without handouts.

id="quote">

WSS

Call me stingy but i too think that people need to learn the value of money, particularly nowadays when everyone seems to be hit by increases in interest rates and such like.

If people can't afford they shouldn't have, this is the philosophy i've been bought up with and thus far it's worked for me.

id="quote">

i think you ve missed the point. this isnt about "teachiing him a lesson", peaches has said he s depressed, and needs help.

Sorry, but I actually think that encouraging him to do this could be an emotional disaster for her as well as him. Her life does not sound as if its in the right place either. Why is she going to be the rock that saves him?

Are you thinking that if you lend him the money then he'll become her problem rather than yours - that there will be someone else to help him rather than you having to bail him out next time?

I think you're in a horrible place. If it gives you peace then give him the money - you probably won't see it back.

Sorry no, i'd not read through the whole of the posts.[:I]

Chids, it's far more complicated that just not knowing the value of money.

25 years ago my Dad had a massive stroke. He needed a triple heart bypass, and as such, had to 'retire' from the business. My Mum was running it single handedly as I had buggered off at that point (couldn't stand the rows, the 24/7/364 [not Christmas Day] hours, pittance of a salary etc.)

Brother gave up his life in Australia as Mum painted a happy picture of a striving family business. Thing was, it was just at the time when things were changing. And the striving business was being undercut left, right and centre by new opposition. And it wasn't a 'happy family' at all. Far from it. So he was miss-sold.

He's resented it ever since, and when my parents 'gave' him the business, they handed over problems and debts and quickly depreciating assets. Only he didn't have enough business sense to see that, and as such, and with his lack of business acumen and poor management skills, has gone downhill. I went back, but after a near break-down myself, I got out. Thank God I did. When he has had a few drinks it all comes out, and he does resent the fact I was able to leave, but he couldn't.

I don't think he seeks luxuries. He lives very, very meagerly. His only 'luxury' was to go to Oz to bring back this woman to help him sort out this mess.

quote:Originally posted by Cedar
Sorry, but I actually think that encouraging him to do this could be an emotional disaster for her as well as him. Her life does not sound as if its in the right place either. Why is she going to be the rock that saves him?

id="quote">

Are you confusing this new woman with his ex (whose sister committed suicide?). I know very, very little about the new/old woman other than she never stopped loving him, even after all these years. And is now in a position (divorced) to be with him. And is prepared to move over to be with him. I don't think she has the issues. He does. She is prepared to take that gamble. For him, it's a lifeline.

quote:Are you thinking that if you lend him the money then he'll become her problem rather than yours - that there will be someone else to help him rather than you having to bail him out next time?

id="quote">
That didn't even cross my mind. He is my brother. I will ALWAYS worry about him. But I can't always help him emotionally. I'm not strong enough for that anymore. It's not a case of bailing him out or passing him onto someone else to deal with. I want to know what is best to do for him now. I'm in America. He is in the UK. I can't hug him like I did on Christmas Day, or sit down and listen as I have done. Well, I can. On the phone. Thing is, it tears me apart.

quote:I think you're in a horrible place. If it gives you peace then give him the money - you probably won't see it back.

id="quote">

I've said that to Mr P (who, like Nick, suggests a contract, stipulations on the business etc.) If I/we lend him the money I'd have to (personally) give it with no stipulations. He is in a bad enough place as it is without his sister & husband saying 'here is X grand, but you have to do this, have to sign that'. And if it doesn't come back but he is still alive, then so be it.

And if it doesn't work out with her, then so be it too.

It sounds like you've made your mind up Peaches. On paper, it sounds utterly crazy, but I would do exactly the same if it was my brother. I do agree with what the others said about pratical help being crucial too- he can get better from depression, but he mustn't feel like people are 'against' him, no matter how much his decisions in life may seem baffling. Hope it works out for all of you. ?

Gawd what an awful situation for all concerned. I sympathise with you Peaches, I really do.

Does this woman know what's waiting for her when she comes to the UK? I mean, both financially and emotionally? Maybe ask him that and whether he thinks it might be fair to give her the bear bones of the situation before she lands here. Maybe you could 'use' her as an excuse for him to seek emotional help?

I feel for you love. I've seen my older brother through some extremely hard times in the past few years too (collaps of his business/divorce/other horrid things involving attempted suicides) but I CAN tell you that there is always light at the end of the tunnel. He is now married and a lot happier than it seemed possible at some points in the past.

I can only speak from what I would do in your situation. I would try and do anything in my power to make him happy and if that meant paying for a flight to australia, I would.

I do tend to listen to my heart and not my head and I acknowledge that doesn't always make for wise decisions.

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Thank you Funky, that has given me some hope. My brother can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. He can't even see the tunnel. Well, couldn't. Until now. I'm unable to ask him outright all the questions you and others have asked. I just can't get the words out .. I have to think very carefully about every single thing I say. He is very defensive and no-one has ever gone through what he has gone through (his words). He made light of my move to the States saying that it was nothing like what he is going through. Which is true. But it wasn't easy either when I was back home dealing with my job, sorting out the houses, studying for exams, excessive amounts of paperwork ..... *yawn*

But I do understand him. He is depressed and can't live for now like I've learnt to. I wish I could get him help (as I did), but horse to water and all that.

I've told you all far more than I had intended, but to give you all enough meat on the bones of the situation to give me an answer, I had to really.

Lou, it does sound like I've decided, doesn't it. But I'm not really sure (still) if it is the right thing to do. I've tried to email Mum back, but struggling. I doubt he even knows I know, which is the first step - to find out.

This may sound completely ridiculous, but do you think you could write him a letter? Just to explain how much you care about and love him and then you could go on to say any suggestions you make are only because you love and want to help him through this.

I know that when my brother was going through his little period of hell on earth, it was very important for him to actually 'hear' how much he meant to us and that he was a very important part of our family - he felt worthless and we had to try and make him feel worthwhile. He was not into all that 'emotional claptrap' before, or now even. But then, in his 'darkest hour', it was desperatly important to him.

Dont get me wrong - I wasn't talking about professing your undying love and devotion ?, just that sometimes (especially as he's so low) its nice to hear (and even nicer to read).

Poor you. I think you need to do something today to cheer yourself up (doghnut anyone?) x

Does writing how happy we are and how much we care in his birthday card count?!

Wrote his card last night saying how glad we are that M is coming over. And how much we're looking forward to meeting her (I met her briefly before in the UK).

Not good at writing sentimental stuff in letters at the best of times.

I'm going to ring Mum now .. easier than emailing back and forth



PS. Edited last post as I got the wrong end of the stick. Thank God! [relief]

What a horrible situation. It sounds like you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If I were in a similar situation, I'd be on the first available plane back home to deal with it all in person. (Although I appreciate that, practically and emotionally, that may not be the best solution for you.)
I also think that Nick has given good advice.

What a difficult situation to be in. I think I would only lend him the money with conditions attached such as him seeking help for his depression, someone to look after the affairs of the business etc. Otherwise where do you draw the line, you could continue to throw good money after bad. Could you offer him the money in stages so you can give him a chunk of money as things progress/improve ?

Is it worth chatting to the girlfriend to see if she can try and persuade him to get help ?

We were faced with a similar situation with MrB's sister. We gave her the money as she was desperate, however she then didn't appear to want to get herself out of the hole she was in (it was drugs in her case) and refused all help and support offered by family. After that incident we decided we wouldn't give her anymore money until she was ready to change.

Theres no right or wrong answer so I hope you make the decision you feel is best for the situation. The only thing I would say is set yourself a limit on how much money you are prepared to loose, and when/if you get to it then stop.

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