Lois (and others interested in a dog food discussion!)

Well. I feed my dog Burns High Oats. Mainly because he's a greedy little sod and is prone to put on weight (miniature dachshund). He started off on Eukanuba puppy food. But went off that. I then tried him on Genesis. He went off that. Then I tried him on Burns mini bits. Which he loved, but scoffed in about 3 seconds flat. The high oats are a lot bigger so take him longer to eat.

I have to say he's looking really well on it and regularly gets comments in the street. AND he's lost a bit of weight over the last year on it. So I'm really pleased.

I also did a study on pet food for my canine psychology course. Comparing different types of dog foods and brands. I'd agree that it's better to know exactly what is in your pet food (rather than "animal derivatives" or suchlike claims) I found out all sorts of grim stuff about pet food - most of which I've now forgotten. But I know that Burns came out very well. Don't forget that if you are comparing wet with dry food then you need to take out the water content before you compare protein levels.

Thanks Witty - I don't think I would want to know about the grim stuff anyway tbh ?

Bit of early morning [nobber]ing for Lois.

I subscribe to b - the really high protein foods worry me as they haven't been around long enough to see if they do cause problems. Certainly for larger breeds Oscar recommend a lower protein level than for smaller breeds, and certainly some puppies benefit from even lower protein levels for hyhper activity.
The nutritionist who develops the foods for Oscars has a brain the size of a planet - if us lowly franchisees ask him anything we have to go via Oscars to get an interpretation - I literally cannot understand his science speak, but I DO trust his research.

I am not in the 'this is how dogs would eat naturally' camp because dogs do not have the lifestyle they would 'naturally' and in fact domestic dogs are so far removed from what dogs were like in the wild I don't actually think it's that relevant what they would eat naturally.

I think the main choice to make is raw food versus complete food.

L
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I am a bit wary of Orijen because they look like they've bought one of the many 'variety packs' of herbs you can get to put into petfood and are lauding it as the second coming. Maybe they have researched all those benefits, I am not convinced

L
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There's something I've always found confusing about the above. I've never really understood giving a dog a diet that is close to the wild but then not subscribing to the way dogs interact in a pack in the wild and using that in their training, surely the two would be connected if we assume their need for the diet wouldn't have evolved?

I have two dogs and I have to say that no two foods suit them the same. They are the same breed, from the same breeder yet they are so unique. Hugo is prone to being chubby, Hudson cannot keep weight on. Hugo has a cast iron stomach and is very rarely ill, whereas Hudson get an upset stomach at the mention of a change in food. They both have different foods and I treat them as different dogs. I think really that's the best you can do, try foods and see what suits them the best. I am sure if I started to really look into their food I would be very shocked even though I feed one of the main brands, I'm just happy that they are really healthy on it and it suits them. The only problem I have is they get bored of it so they tend to have a week of meat and rice in-between bags.

Firstly, physical evolutionary changes to digestion and metabolism take a very long time - 15 000 years of domestication isn't that long in comparison, especially if you consider that up until the BSE scare dogs would get bone as a standard part of their diet in commercial dog food (that's why dog poos used to be white and aren't any more). It's only in the last 20 years that commercial dog food has gone massively down the bulking up with carbs route - to replace the bone that would have been there. Bone is fundamentally a part of a dog's diet - they are specially eqipped to digest it with very strong stomach acid and rapid transit through the body.

Secondly, and simplistically, comparing how wolves in the wild with dogs in a human environment in behavioural terms is like looking at chimps to understand more about how humans behave, or for parenting tips. Add to that the fact that the original studies which described the wolf pack and extraoplated it to dogs were flawed in the extreme, have been routinely held up as such by further research on true wolf packs and no serious study of wolf or dog behaviour supports any of the theory whatsoever. See David Mech's website, or the recent paper from Bristol University for more on this. Dog social groups are loose, resources are fluid and all their interactions are designed to avoid conflict. Dominance is well and truly debunked - yet it remains as this pervasive, damaging meme to the detriment of many dogs out there. ETA link for Bristol Paper: http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html

Finally, dogs like wolves or any other animal with a spinal column (and some that don't have them like octopus) are operant - they learn through trial and error and if something results in a good outcome they're likely to do it again. If it's neutral, or negative, then it's likely to fade as a behaviour. We are humans, we have more tools available to us than teeth or claws - we should use them to the benefit of our dogs, not try and mimic what a dog 'might' do in a situation/. For a start we cannot read their body language as well as they can, they know we're not dogs so trying to copy them is going to be cack-handed at best, and ultimately surely it's easier to teach the dog what we want them to do in a given situation, making it rewarding for them to follow those rules, rather than relying on punishment to keep them in their place?

Going back to the OP - high protein and pano would be my concern. Raw diets are usually recommended for pano because of the bone, not the protein. Orijen is fine for my two but they're adults - if Orijen puppy is still as high in protein then Burns / Nature diet is probably a better bet.

From a vet point of view then b) is our point of view.

High protein can result in rapid growth with can cause problems with joints and bones. I forget what breed of puppy you have and whether it is a large breed. Certainly lower levels of protein are important in large breed pups.

Certainly all my pups have always been on reduced protein diets and (touchwood) haven't had any developmental bone problems.

HTH

Thanks everyone, that's massively helpful.

Meg is a miniature Labradoodle so shouldn't exceed about 17" to shoulder but I just don't want to make her hyper (or more than usual anyway!)

In conclusion, it's going to be trial and error so I'll start with something lower (but not too low) in protein and think about changing to Orijen or something similar in a year or so. Thank you everyone!

It's not digestive system changes you need to account for though - it's activity levels and lifestyles. Because feeding a dog as close to a natural diet as possible, natural for a wild dog, is just plain daft. They don't have the exact same nurtritional requirements, by any stretch of the imagination.

L
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Sorry to crash this thread, we are feeding sprout (minature schnauzer 6 months) on royal canin, but finding it very expensive. I don't mind paying if it is the best food for her, but I have no idea if it is.

I have been wondering about Oscars as I have seen it being advertised quite a bit and it can be delivered foc which is very tempting,

I want to keep her on dry food, is Oscars worth considering?

Thank you so much in advance x

But that's true of whatever you feed them. Personally I find it crazy to suggest that you can feed a dog the same thing day in day out for the rest of its life and expect it to be at optimum health - just because dogs in labs have been used to identify what the minimum levels of nutrients are required. Dogs in labs have completely different lives from the average pet too (a friend of mine from my recent course is the person who designs their exercise and enrichment programmes for Waltham so I do have a fair understanding of what their life is like). She feeds raw, incidentally...

All diets need to be adapted to the needs of the individual dog - people who blindly follow the feeding instructions on a packet of food without noticing that their dog is under or overweight are more stupid than anyone who believes that fresh food with minimal processing and lots of variety is better for their dog. [shrug]

But most manufacturers don't base their research on dags in labs (in fact because most of them can't afford the labs to keep the dogs in in the first place, lucky pedigree ?).

Personally, I think raw is the ideal diet, however the majority of people who feed raw are screwing it up by having no understanding whatsoever of what they're doing - as evidenced of what's coming out the other end of their dog.

Probably the best thing about Oscars is the interaction with customers - the ability to speak to them about their own dog, what it's activity levels are, what food will suit best (at the current time, the point of offering a range is that needs change) and also the ongoing follow up of monitoring weight/activity level changes etc. And there are not many companies that do THAT.

L
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