men who won't marry.

Well I don't think it's just men to be honest. I didn't want to get married but in the end I did because of pressure from my partner. I think if you are in a committed relationship then you are in one and a piece of paper doesn't change that - in the end of my marriage it didn't matter if we were married or not, it was over end of story. I also think that it is important that you and any partner are in agreement about things like this because it is unpleasant to be the one that compromised (certain issues such as this and children really have no middle ground do they!) and if neither will compromise then it is unpleasant to live with the fall out.

In the case of your post you have hit the nail on the head - the person in question is perfectly happy with the situation. They have no incentive to change it if they are perfectly happy do they!

On our first date my H said he'd never get married again. He'd been there before, had his fingers burnt and was adamant he didn't want to go there again. I wasn't actually that bothered as I actually don't see marriage as being "important", in the sense that I don't think marriage keeps you together or strengthens your commitment and actually I do think that marriage has turned into being more about the event than the meaning.

If the man is very open about these feelings from the start then I think you get together with them on that basis, therefore it's unfair for the women to put any pressure on to make it happen. My H decided to propose out of the blue but if he hadn't it really wouldn't have been an issue and wouldn't have been a deal breaker, in fact neither of us even wear wedding rings, H never has and I don't like mine anymore (shallow) but I still love being his wife and being with him.

I was with someone for 5 years who would not entertain the idea of marriage. I was quite young at the time (22-27) so it wasn't an immediate problem but whenever we talked about our future he was adament he'd never marry although he was keen to have children. We split up (not because of this) and he met someone else who he is now engaged to. So obviously it wasn't marriage itself that was the problem, just me ?

My friend has been with her partner for 14 years. They're reasonably happy and compatible but he will never marry her. His first wife died and he believes that you should only marry once. My friend would dearly love to get married but has realised over the years that he's not going to change his mind and she's accepted she'd rather be with him and not have a wedding ring. She turns 50 this year and is desperately sad however that she'll never get the whole wedding day thing. Personally I don't question his commitment to her, although I think it's a shame that all the compromise has been on her part.

That is so sad Carrot. . I dont think its just men that wont marry. I have to say although me and h2b are engaged neither of us are particularly fussed on when/if we marry. The committment is there and the love is there so having a ring and a certificate doesnt particularly matter. A close member of my family rushed into a marriage with someone that wasnt right for them but cheers herself up with the fact that she can say she is married. Id rather live my life with my marital status as single and be with a good man or alone than be married to someone I dont want to be with.

Having had a disastrous first marriage myself I completely agree that a "single" status is far, far better than being in a bad marriage. With my friend I have to say there are other issues such as him constantly referring to his late wife as the love of his life which is very upsetting for my friend. But then she seems reasonably happy so I keep my thoughts to myself unless I'm directly asked. I know females who don't want to marry too though so it's definitely not just a man thing.

She sounds like a saint, I know i couldnt handle that.

My ex was like that. Wasn't going to get married, and didn't want to travel. He's now living in Canada with his wife. ?

My (ex) line manager ins't married - and when I asked him why, his reasons were

• Not religious (me either, but I'm married)
• Parents were divorced (me too. Next)
• Didn't "believe in the commitment" - which translated as didn't believe the commitment of marriage was greater than that of living together.

Thanks for the replies. I know it's not just men - but i guess the issue i am referring to relates that way around.

I think it's very sad when one person has to sacrifice their hopes and desires for another one's lack of bother. If it's 'just a piece of paper' and it will make the other person feel more valued and secure - then why not give them that "piece of paper"!? *(in this circumstance) I personally just don't buy it.

I feel bad for this girl cos she's moved her golaposts time and time again. Said she'd not move in unless engaged .... then moved in. 3 yrs later said she wouldn't buy a house until .... has now bought a house.... said she wouldn't have kids unless ... is now planning to come off pill. And all this time her desperate expectation for that wedding day hasn't changed - but is clearly becoming less likely since he's had it all his way. I think he's being a *** to her actually.

Yes, except that, she is clearly signalling to him that she prefers being with him/living with/owning a house with him/having children with him without marriage than being with or marrying anyone else. Otherwise, she would have left him when he wouldn't marry her? There is no reason for him to marry her - he doesn't want to, she is consistently willing to compromise.

It's even worse if he is horrible to her - it sounds like she has a self-esteem issue rather than being in love with him. Though, who ever knows what goes on in other people's relationships. Fingers crossed she either builds some self-esteem or recognises that she is actually making a choice and does have a preference and becomes content with that, rather than an ideal she isn't able to have or willing to stand up for.

I'm not unsympathetic - I've stayed in relationships longer than I should have, compromised where I shouldn't have. I'm not saying she shouldn't be doing what she is doing either. Just that she is an adult with choices and is expressing a preference, for which the conseqences work better for her than the alternative (otherwise she would do the alternative). Unless she makes different choices she'll get the same outcome - and expecting otherwise will just be miserable for her. Here's hoping it works out for her.?

I'd be significantly more concerned about the legalities relating to property ownership/financial input/children/inheritance tax etc than 'having a wedding day'. I'd want to be doubly, triply sure I wasn't being swindled in some way. But then I'm a weirdly practical person, and cynical with it.

Marriage is a contract after all. With no contract, I"m sure she's far more financially vulnerable.

WJKS

Even though I know marriage isn't for everyone, I believe that it does cement any commitment you may have to your partner. Even if it is only a bit of paper it does carry more weight in various legal things than just living together.

I dunno, I have friends who aren't married but have been living together for years, not sure if they ever will get married. Maybe I'm just oldfashioned!

Following on from the first post, I think that often times it does signal a lack of commitment. I would be worried about having kids with someone who refused to marry me, not because of any stigma but because I feel that having kids is more of a commitment than getting married.

I have had people who's boyfriends aren't keen to marry them ask me how I 'got' my husband to marry me. We married quite quickly (engaged after 6 months, married 18 months later) and I wonder if one of the reasons is that I was ambivalent about commitment. He also knew I wouldn't live with him if we weren't married or getting married soon, and he wanted to tie me down I think ?

Each relationship is different so I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. For instance, my Mum & her partner have been together for 16 years and aren't married and are very happy as they are. I think there's something a bit sad waiting around for someone to decide if they want to marry you or not - if he's not interested in you, move on.

Also, why have kids or move in with someone who's not sure about you? I find this a bit weird.

Yup, there is that as well. When friends ask me the difference between living together and being married, I say it's like the difference between having a lock and a bolt on your door. Living together, I felt that Mr Orly & my relationship was solid. Getting married was the equivalent of the bolt: just that little bit extra.

Its odd, I was one of those don't see the point of marriage but as someone else said earlier it appeared to be the person rather than the act for me. Once I met MrG I just "knew" I wanted to be married to him. I'm in no way saying that all those not wanting to get married are with the wrong person. It did happen to a friend of mine too - 15 years together, he had no interest in marriage. Within one year of them splitting up he was married with a baby on the way!

I feel sorry for your friend, but equally sorry for her partner for a number of reasons. What exactly is it about marriage that so appeals to her? The security, commitment and financial protection which comes with marriage can be easily emulated by both parties entering into a contract (essential a pre-nup in reverse, and without the 'nup' ever happening). One of your latest posts suggests that she is feeling done out of a wedding day, which seems very silly and princessy indeed to me, but I do understand that some people do feel strongly about having their day in the limelight. I wouldn't feel too sorry or despair too much for your friend- she is making her bed and lying in it and as an adult, you really have to just let her get on with it. I didn't realise until recently (after over a year of fairly intensive counselling) that for me, the are more reasons not to get married than to get married and I think if people were completely honest with themselves, they too may question its value as a concept/ institution (religious aspects aside, of course).

I feel sorry for your friend, but equally sorry for her partner for a number of reasons. What exactly is it about marriage that so appeals to her? The security, commitment and financial protection which comes with marriage can be easily emulated by both parties entering into a contract (essential a pre-nup in reverse, and without the 'nup' ever happening). One of your latest posts suggests that she is feeling done out of a wedding day, which seems very silly and princessy indeed to me, but I do understand that some people do feel strongly about having their day in the limelight. I wouldn't feel too sorry or despair too much for your friend- she is making her bed and lying in it and as an adult, you really have to just let her get on with it. I didn't realise until recently (after over a year of fairly intensive counselling) that for me, the are more reasons not to get married than to get married and I think if people were completely honest with themselves, they too may question its value as a concept/ institution (religious aspects aside, of course).

Gaaaah, just read that back and realise that I sound like a bitter old trout! ? I promise I'm not, but I do get equal amounts of pleasure and joy for my friends when they announce that they are moving in with their partner/ sprogging as I do when they tell me that they have a new sparkler (although am obviously delighted at the latter!) Ok, ok, I think I still sound bitter so I'll shut up now. ?

I really like the "lock and bolt" analogy, thats a great way of explaining why its better to marry. I don't personally understand why someone is willing to spend a life with someone, have a child, buy a house, etc, yet not want to go through that ceremony which is essentially a public declaration that you want to be with the other person. Is it because they think there is an easier way out of the relationship that way? Do they think it makes it an easier split in the future? If you've kids and a house, thats probably a huge amount more difficult to extricate yourself from, and in the case of kids you can't (or shouldn't want to). I've no idea, just musing aloud. Its just one of those mindsets I'll never understand, either s**t or get off the pot! Of course you don't "need" or "have" to go through a ceremony to declare your love for someone, but I can't help but have a feeling that if you're flatly refusing to go through with it, maybe it isn't as solid or for life as you think it is? Again, just musing aloud.

LouM, i don't think you sound bitter at all, I actually think a lot of what you say is true! Can I ask a question? Please feel free to say you won't answer but I'm really interested in the "commitment" side of marriage.

I know that you put an awful lot into making your marriage work and long sessions of counselling etc (which i really admire), do you feel that you'd have done the same if you weren't married, so say you'd lived together only? I'm interested in whether, when push comes to shove, that being married makes you put more effort into "saving" the relationship. So, in a sense whether it does offer more commitment as it harder to walk away. I really hope that comes across how I intend it to, it's just an interesting topic and I feel you are a good person to ask having been through it.

Not LouM obviously but I think that's a valid point Poochanna. When H & I had not been married long we had a couple of enormous rows that culminated in one or other of us walking out (we still had 2 properties at the time). Had we not been married it would have been a lot easier to think that that was it I suppose. However, because we'd made that commitment the effort was made to sort it out.

I know people say that living together and having "just a piece of paper" makes no difference. And in theory it shouldn't. However, I felt completely different after I'd got married. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but I felt much more settled within myself. That someone has made a huge commitment to me, in front of all our families and friends, and infront of God, that he wants to be with me forever. I have to say that's made me feel pretty special. I know anyone can say that - but the solemnity of the service and the fact that it's such a public declaration makes it so much more. That's how I feel anyway.

My sister has been with her partner for 13 years and is pregnant with their 4th child. He refuses point blank to get married. It used to upset her but I think she's resigned herself to it now. But i do feel a little bit sad for her.

presumably if you live with someone and have children with them then your family, friends etc will know that youre with that person. why does a certificate representing vows which at least 50% of people break actually mean that much? why does it mean more? if a will is in place, a marriage certificate gives no more protection practically speaking. and what do you mean by "shit or get of the pot? what on earth does that mean.

marriage is popular here for one reason and one reason alone. social normality, and the long lasting influence of religion, which has lead to the marriage contract being available in our culture, yet without the religious connotation if one doesnt want it. you also aid you were musing, but you didnt actually give any practical reasons why marriage is a good idea.

Pooch, that's such an interesting (and valid) point. Subconsciously, the marriage certificate may have driven our efforts more than we realised, but my aim throughout the whole process has been to salvage our relationship, not our marriage. I realised this quite early on in the counselling process because it was one of the first questions they asked (presumably to identify whether we were staying in a carwreck mainly because of the 'piece of paper'). Havung said that, the fact that we are married has had a huge impact on events- I hesitate to cause it a breakdown because that sounds ott, but I got myself into a state of severe anxiety prior to announcing our separation because I believed that family members (my father is 'high up" in his church as is mil in hers) would at worst disown us and at best, consider us to be failures. That's far more to do with religion issues than actual marriage issues, but in general, I jave found it very hard to deal with the stigma and fall out from having to explain my marriage breakdown. If I thought that somebody was staying with me because they were afraid to face such a stigma, I would be horrified, so I don't think it can be a good thing at all. I really believe that if somebody ius going to walk away without workung at thibgs, they'll do so whether it's a married or unmarried relationship, whereas the grafters have to deal with the additional stigma and stress. Caveat is that I haven't been in an analogous (long term cohabiting) but unarried break uo before, so perhaps the feeling is just the same and the 'stigma' is all in my head. Despite knowing that I threw just about everything I had at the relationshiop, I still feel guilt and shame, no matter what my good friends and counsellor tell me. So, as a 'damaged good' I can't honestly see that there is much in 'marriage' to tempt me.

For me, it is the ultimate commitment. I am an Athiest. My decision to marry my H was underpinned by many things-namely absolute confidence he was "the one" and I would grow old with him, a public and legally binding declaration, security, the wish to have his child within marriage..... that given all of the aforementioned why settle for being a common law wife/partner/girlfriend at this stage in my life?

I have been in a previous long term relationship-12 years, and had children with him. I ended it 10 years ago. The reason I didn't marry was because we were both ambivalant about it, and I did my growing up in that relationship. I was with him from 17-29. There was also a part of me that on some level knew despite the longevity of the relationship and having children, I wouldn't see my days out with him.

I love being married-as someone said earlier, it just cements what we have. That said, I don't think anyone should feel pressured to marry-If they are really set against it or unsure of the other person. In the case of the OP's friend-she has compromised her desire to marry him in order to preserve the relationship/in teh hope that time will change his mind, I think. Personally, I don't think I could want it/push for it if the other wasn't keen/ambivalant-it's a pride thing! It would make me question the foundation of what I had though, if he was so resolute and against and I would probably move on.

Thanks for answering Lou and Whitty. It's really interesting to me as I've never really put that much attachment to marriage (as mentioned above) but then having read this topic I do think that being married would make me more likely to go to lengths to save our relationship. I can totally see the stigma with parents and for the record I really don't think you are a failure at all Lou, I think you did/are doing a lot more than most would have done and you should be very proud of that no what the outcome will be.

I've also never lived with anyone else which I think is why I find it so interesting. I know friends who have split having lived together and not been married and it doesn't seem to be so gut wrenching as friends that have divorced but maybe that's just their own individual circumstances.

"S**t or get off the pot" means do something rather than procrastinate and not do anything ie. do your business and move on. If you're in it for the long term, whats wrong with having a marriage ceremony and making it "official" (in the eyes of legality/God), especially if its something that the other person really longs for. I guess there isn't a 100% practical good reason for marriage now (the tax benefits have gone) beyond a public declaration of commitment to the other person, and yes it is a social norm and is done to make people feel good, but why is a social norm a bad thing, something to run away from? Its all down to your own personal set of values, I personally feel being married is a good thing in my head/world/personal set of values.

What is a good practical reason for NOT getting married then?

What an interesting thread.

Carrot, I do feel terribly sorry for your friend - not because he won't marry her, but because she's so clearly second best to the late wife. But then I wouldn't want to be with someone who made me feel like that, still less marry them.

Re Pooch's question to Lou, I've always maintained that infidelity would be a deal-breaker in a relationship. When it happened to me in my marriage, I felt differently, clearly because my feelings about marriage outweighed my feelings about cheating. Also I was being deeply stupid ?

I don't know if I'll ever mary again, but there are excellent practical reasons for doing so.

i know what the phrase means, i meant in relation to marriage. why is not getting married "procrastinating"? youre assuing that everyone in a committed relationship SHOULD get married. why? are you particularly religous by any chance? or is there some other reason?

and your statment "its all down to your own personal set of values" is at odds to the rest of your post, and your previous one where you say that people should etc, and then end by saying "whats a practical reason not to get married?"

and come on, i asked you a question, "why?", all you did was return with "why not?"

I think a lot of men are happy to stay indefinitely in relationships that aren't really working, but not to marry a woman unless they really think she is "the one". Whereas women seem to be willing to push for taking the plunge into marriage even if things aren't going too well in the relationship.

One does hear of lots of situations where a couple split up after the woman pressuring for marriage for years, and six months later the guy is engaged to someone else.

I don't feel the need to make a public declaration of commitment, though. I just don't think it's necessary. I'm not religious, my parents' marriage was a disaster. Marriage is so conventional. I have been with my partner for 9 years and we have a child, I am 100% committed to them both. We're not procrastinating, we're just not getting married.

Interesting thread.

Sorry if I ramble, but I am a bit drunk!

My current boyf doesn't want to get married, he doesn't see the point. Even though his parents have been happoily married for 40+ years.

I got married in Sept 2003, but we broke up in April 2005. I never thought about geting married when I was younger, I just didn't think it was important. A mortgage and living together was more important to me.

When my ex H proposed to me, I was soooo suprised, but also so happy. I never turned into a bridezilla and left my parents to mosst of the organising of the wedding. Looking back, the wedding day was one of the most amazing days of my life - when do you get ALL of your friends and family together, including your OH friends and family?

Even though I am now divorced I don't regret a thing. I loved my weding day. I am glad I did it. I would be sad if I had never got married. I got to be a 'bride' and I loved it.

Not sure I could do it again though. if my boyf proposed to me, which i doubt would happen, I would wantr to go abroad, just the 2 of us, but that would mean denying his family of a 'wedding day'. So I would rahther not do it again.