Musing about financial independence (referring to the WP thread)

Our salaries get paid into our joint account, have done for over 6months now and thats before we're married.

As you say, having a mortgage together ties you in. Our view on things is we are a couple, a team, a family and our future is together and we want to build that future jointly.

We give ourselves 'pocket money' each month into our personal accounts and also retain some personal savings (although I'm pretty sure OH dips into his!!). That's to retain our independance. If I want to buy shoes, or he wants to go to a football match, that's entirely our perogotive.

I'm a SAHM now, so I live off our joint account, which is basically money that Hubby puts in each month for me to use for food shopping etc when he isn't around. It also pays for my mobile (all of £15 a month). I don't take the piss with it though, as it's all 'our' money. His wages etc go into his own account and all bills go from that. Inc my life insurance, the lot!

I still have 2 of my own accounts which has about £2k in it, which is money I have left from Maternity pay etc. There was more in there, but I used some of it for the wedding, and also each time I buy Hubby a Christmas or Birthday present it comes out of here. He tells me to use the joint account, but to me that feels wrong. The only way I top up my own account is from Birthday money or stuff I sell on ebay.

I found it VERY hard to be in a position where I am reliant on him for money, but at the end of the day, I guess it's all for our family, and it doesn't matter where it comes from, so long as we are both careful with where it goes.

I think you're in the majority Nuts.

My view is that with savings you always retain that independence, yet with a joint mortgage you never have it!

We have seperate accounts.

I'm a SAHM, so H puts money in my account, which is for me to spend how I want.

All bills, rent, food money comes out of H's account. He also pays for my mobile.

Our finances are pretty complicated but I believe it's incredibly important, particularly as a woman, to retain some financial independence. I totally buy in to the 'we're a team/doing the best for our family' thing, I really do, but I am fed up of seeing women in a precarious financial situation that can so easily be avoided.

I'd urge any of you who are intending to spend any length of time out of the work place to make sure you have your own savings, ongoing pension arrangements and an agreed stream of cash to tide you over. Perhaps it doesn't seem as important when you/we are young but fast forward a few years, to a point where none of us can foresee, and financial security, (job)market worth, retirement prospects for the future all become even more important. Sorry to be such a monger of doom but it's something so important and I'd hate to see any of you/us struggling when most of it is avoidable.

Not irrelevant when I consider the financial history of my family and the importance of separating money. After a bad business deal (and not either of their faults), my parents would have lost everything - I mean everything, the house etc - had my mother not always maintained a separate bank account and a measure of financial independence.

We have had little-nil spendable income for the past year so where it comes in to/ goes out of has been a bit irrelevant.

We used to get paid in to our seperate accounts and transfer money between us to cover bills etc. Now we have a joint account where wages are paid in to and the majority of bills come out of. We lump all of our bills together and plan on splitting whatever is leftover from our wages 50/50 between us come a couple of months when we are completely back on our feet.

In reply to Storky and Footlong:

I think that's exactly what I'm saying though. If spare money is tied up in ISAs and personal savings, the few grand of monthly income is less relevant. Of course if a couple let's money accumulate in a joint account without diverting into savings, then yes, the independence is lost.

As an example, our joint monthly income is X. I currently have 2X in an ISA, 3X in another investment, and next week will get 2-3X proceeds from a house sale. If anything were to happen to the monthly X, or OH decided to run off with it, or for any reason our joint account were closed down, the maximum I could lose would be X. Yet I would still have up to 8X independently mine, regardless of the fact that everything went into and out of the joint account.

Therefore people saying their independence is affected by using a joint account for everything isn't necessarily true.

If we only had 1 joint account between us, I would spend all of H's earnings as well as my own, so it's safer for him to have his own account ?

He has savings, I don't. If I found myself divorced and on my own, I would manage. Things always work out in the end. I just don't do savings. I know it's terribly irresponsible of me.

BBB, I'm not sure I'm following you, to be honest. I can work through your example fine and accept that, in the grand scheme of things, the actual amount of monthly income represents a very small part of a couple's total worth (or potential worth).

I'm not suggesting that joint finances are necessarily problematic, to whatever extent people find it works for them (Boy and I contribute between 22-30% of our monthly incomes to the joint account). I have no problem with people putting 99% of their money into a joint account if they want (although I would never).

The main issue I have is when people have ONLY joint accounts. I think this foolhardy. My mother was only able to rescue our family situation because she could persuade HER bank, with whom she had maintained a very good relationship with in terms of managing HER money, to give HER ALONE a second mortgage. This would have been impossible had all of her cash been tied up in a single account with my Dad's money, with bankruptcy hanging over them and zero credit rating.

I would say that the above situation happened some twenty odd years ago. I'm not sure it would be so easy for my Mum to have done the same these days - banks are far more cautious about lending to people who are even loosely associated with a partner with bad debt.

A secondary concern about all money in joint accounts is that I spend FAR more than Boy does on clothing/going out/etc. I could simply never be the type of girl who has to check that it's OK to buy a pair of shoes (as I've observed with one of my friends - she phones to check it's OK to take out £30 to go for a drink with me - NEVER NEVER NEVER).

Ah well yes, only having a joint account and all savings also in joint names, I agree, is maybe not the best idea. Yet when you get tax free interest on ISAs which are, by nature, individual, why would you have taxed interest joint savings instead? Or maybe that almost seems too obvious to me so I wasn't considering people may not feel the same.

So, I'll rephrase my original comment to state that I see no need for multiple CURRENT accounts since you can always maintain independence through savings.

I have no idea how my parents currently organise their finances, but at one time I know all their savings and investments were in mum's name only, since Dad paid the higher tax rate and mum didn't. Dad earned all the money that was invested in mum's name. That's trust for you!

This. I value my independence, but also value his.

By way of anecdote, when I set up my business Mr S lent me some money in order to take the pressure off me needing to earn from the outset. We had agreed a certain sum per month which would cover my usual outgoings. He (correctly) realised that being 'kept' would be a real struggle for me and so, on day one of month one, he transferred me a lump sum. It allowed me to spend as I pleased (within reason, and within the usual constraints of my income) and without feeling beholden to him. As it happens, he chose to gift me the money, rather than add to the pressure of making it a success in order to repay him. He's incredible. (As a further aside, I gave it all back to him, on the day we opened a joint savings account - so maybe I only really gave him half back ?)

This also. I have a good friend who is in her 50s. She had a happy marriage for years and two children who have now grown up and left home, but things have gone pear-shaped. Her husband cheated on her a couple of years ago, but she feels that she is stuck with him as everything is in his name (mortgage, bank accounts, etc.). She hates what she has become, and is depressed. I love my husband, but I am not naive enough to put all of my eggs in one basket. I hope that I can always rely on him, and him me, but I know that nothing in life is for certain.

We get paid our salary, and then transfer a % to the joint account. This pays all bills, meals out, grocery shopping, etc. and builds up a pot which is used for renovations and holidays. What we retain in our own accounts is personal money, and is used for whatever we desire. Any breaks away that we have without each other (stags/hens/etc.) is paid from personal money, so no arguments about going away for a weekend and spending all of 'our' cash. H buys gadgets, I buy shoes, we're both happy.

Agree. Why would you need more than one current account (for personal use; obviously, if you have businesses etc, you run more accounts)?

Eeeuwww exactly. Never! Yet I would happily use the JA for a night out, and wouldn't care if OH used it for his stuff either. Neither of us would ask permission though.

I understand what you mean about a mortgage being the ultimate financial committment together but it doesnt diminish the importance of separate bank accounts IMO.

We have our own accounts which all our own bills come out of - ie mobile bills,gym membership etc. Each time we get paid we both put half of our salaries into the joint account to cover mortgage, house hold bills and food. It should in theory be quite flush but never seems to be! Something we need to get on top of.

We also put a small amount into my ISA each month - rainy day fund, car insurance etc.

I would never give up my own personal bank account. OH is dreadful with money & constantly living off his overdraft. Drives me mad.

As it is I 'run' the household account. OH has a card for it but never activated it. Im better at these kind of things.

This is the total opposite of my parents - mum has a business account and thats it. She only operates with cash & gives her employees a brown envelop every saturday (all legite!) My dad operates the household accounts & sorts all bills etc. All the money is there money - what one has so does the other. They find our way strange ie often OH will have no £ yet I do. But in those situations we help each other out.

I currently dont have a pension but my new job offers a great one - I pay 9% they pay 19% and its final salary based as well. It will be a massive weight of my mind to have a pension scheme in place. As well as a decent maternity package. As I nearer the big 30 my priorities have massively shifted.

So if your H went on a night out and spent what you considered to be an unreasonable amount, or wanted to go to Las Vegas on a stag do for a long weekend, this wouldn't be an issue? You would be happy to have less for a month or two because he had 'overspent' on joint money?

I understand that the case of my friend is a little extreme and suspect most people don't ask permission to take money from a joint account. In principle then, it's all fine. Taking out £30 to go for a few drinks is all well and good.

However, I quite frequently go through £200 on a regular evening out with the girls, dinner/wine/cocktails/taxis. If I want to do that week in, week out, I certainly won't expect Boy to support that.

I am not sure what your point is BBB. Sorry, not being facetious but is there a question in this somewhere?

I have my own savings account, plus my own current account. Then we have a joint savings plus a joint current. OH has quite a few accounts, some linked to his business but some personal. What's the problem with having multiple current accounts? At one time I had 2, mainly because I wanted more than one student overdraft when I was in a financial hard place. My bank actually tells me to have another current account for 'day to day' things, but so far I have stuck to just the one. They don't seem to understand that is what I use my current current account for already and not sure what I would do with another one right now. If I was more money savvy I think having a couple of accounts could be a good thing.

We have separate accounts . I would never change it . We pay out an equal amount in bills and the rest is up to each person what they do with the rest . There was a period of about three months while I was on mat leave that I was really skint,I found it extremely hard to be reliant on OH for funds. He never comments on what I buy or spend on anything and I would not want to even risk a raised eyebrow if our accounts were joint . It would annoy me hugely .

Quite a lot of ppl with mortgages still have trust agreements etc with an intention to seperate the money out weighted on how much each person contributed if they split. My FI and I have this but both agreed we would cancel this if we had a baby as the maternity leave/ part time working would leave me in an unfair position, plus I'd have a dependent living with me more etc.

We have sperate accounts, a shared mortgage acc (so that if we ever did split it'd be easier to track what we contributed to the mortgage), and a shared acc where we put in money weighted on our salary for bills, food shopping etc,

I enjoy having my independence and so does he. I think we have been extra careful in our money situation due to our parents' situations. Both parents have seperated and his mum was a SAHM and my mum has a job that was just to keep her busy a few hours a week, but not what she had been doing prior to children. Both dads earn a lot of money but the mums didnt know anything about their finances, bills, pensions etc. Both parents have seperated after 30 years+ of marriage and suddenly the mums are feeling v vulnerable. I am sure that the dads will look after them and obviously there are legal procedures etc. I think the key is that whatever way you have your money, that both of you understand it and stay on top of it

I could never have a joint account. I see my financial independence as part of who I am. Like footlong I could never be someone who would ask if it was ok to spend money on x,y or z. I like my own money. If that makes me a bad person so be it. As I said in the other thread you can fall out if love overnight, anything can happen to change your circumstances. You need to be able to look after myself if the worst happens. My mum widowed at 27, she had no money of her own and had to move back home with her two kids. Since then she has always maintained her own money and installed the same in us. She relied in her husband financially for everything.

We are not having a family so don't need to subscribe to that ideal, we also have the added joy of the ex and Maintence. We give 50% of mrminis disposable income to her a month, there is no way I am merging our money together.

I think the proponents of the joint account argument sometimes miss this point - I saw a comment on WP about how the poster would hate to feel that they "owed" their partner dinner (or whatever).

Although household stuff comes from a joint account, our dinners/holidays etc are sorted out between our personal accounts (mostly because we don't maintain a huge amount of money in the joint account). But we don't keep serious score of who paid for what. There might be a time when one of us remembers paying previously and prompts the other to do so - as a jokey comment - on the next occasion. I paid for everything to do with Christmas from my personal account and haven't tried to get half back from Boy. But he has recently booked a holiday for us out of his own money and I'm pretty sure he realises I'm not going to give him half ?

While I think the existence of separate accounts in important, in practice it's largely nominal.

Ooh sorry, had to go out and come back to questions...

PB, no. No questions really, they were already asked on the WP thread. It was more a general musing that joint or sole current accounts aren't necessarily a measure of financial independence, since sole savings are more important, and a mortgage ties you together anyway.

And regarding OH spending hundreds on a stag do, etc, well he wouldn't. Even with separate accounts we'd discuss that level of spending, and we have generally the same attitudes to money anyway. The same attitude thing is probably why I don't worry too much about it. Both of us prioritise a nice home, good food, holidays and days out/weekends away over gadgets and fashion, neither of which interest either of us!

I think different approaches work better for different people, But do agree keeping independance is a more sensible option,

For us, we get paid into out personal account and transfer to the joint account which covers mortgage/utilities and insurances. The rest is all kept seperate- I like it that way, that we can do exactly as we please, for us Im more of a saver, I like to have savings, but they are savings for 'our' future, oh for example is a bigger drinker and will quite happily spend a lot on a night out, if i saw the amounts leaving my account, I would flinch a bit, but the way we do it solves that, because it comes out of the joint account,

I trust oh always to pay the bills, and other stuff we do together like meals out, we just take it in turns, and we do it very fairly, we have never had a situation of one asking the other to pay, or sitting there thinking 'isnt it your turn' it just works for us,

I think alot of the independance comes in when you are off work looking after children, lots of my friends it has worked out better for them to stop work or go part time since kids, and if the money comes out of a joint account, they really feel guilty about using it or having to ask for it, even though they fully deserve to spend it on whatever it is at the time, and feel guilty about spending there OH's money, even though there OH has no problems about them spending it. in these cases I think it would also be nicer to have had it transferred into a personal account and then use it as and when.

And also if the worse happens and you did seperate, again having kept some independence would be a good thing then.

See, I don't understand why. If I want to spend MY money, it is exactly that - why would I need to discuss it with my H first?

We each have our own accounts and pay halves for the bills etc. There is a joint account but it doesn't get used it was opened as there were lots of cheques from the wedding in both our names so we opened it with the intention of using it. We use it now to save for holidays.

I couldn't stand the thought of having to ask to buy something, or discuss everytime I wanted to do something or go anywhere that required paying for. Eugh, makes me shudder. I've said it before but even things like birthdays, christmas etc, where is the surprise element if all monies are shared? Wheres the romance? No, I need my freedom. My Mum has always been the same and they are quite old, maybe I've learned from her.

Yup MY I'm with you on that - I wouldn't expect OH to run through possible spendings with me from his own account or vice versa. If he wants to discuss stuff that's fine, but as long as we each pay our mortgage money into the joint account that's as far as each of us needs to know.

See, I look at this two ways.

As a Family lawyer, to me it's irrelevant whether an asset is in one name, the other or joint names. All is part of the "matrimonial pot" as a starting point. However, non-merging of finances could potentially be relevant if you divorce after a short relationship/marriage, which is dependent on othre factors.

If you think having accounts/assets in your sole name name is relevant for the future if the relationship breaks down, then it would be advisable to have a Pre or Post Nuptial Agreement, which would make your position more secure (in the event you divorce) rather than just having assets in your sole name.

I suspect when people talk about future going wrong, they mean posssibly more that they would have some funds instantly accesible, rather than a divorce situation?

I think it also depends how you were brought up - eg FTLOMB's and Mini's experiences from their parents. My parents have this ridiculously amazing marriage, and have just one joint account, which they use for everything. I would like to mirror that with my hubby and I like the idea of it. At the point we haven't done it, but when we have kiddies at some point in the future, and I (ideally) work part-time, that is what I would lile. I also think it would make life a little easier rather than thinking about who owes what etc.

However, I say this knowing my hubby earns probably triple what I earn and is very good with money. If he was cr*p with money I probably would take a different view, and particularly if there was an ex/kiddies situation.

Does that make sense?

By the way, any reference to "you" is meant generically.

You may know, would the CSA/ MrMinis ex have any stake on my salary now we are married?