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Copper

New dog...how to stop it "biting" hands/feet/wrists....

Copper, 8 July, 2009 at 18:58 Posted on Off Topic Posts 0 9

Warning- long post..

PIL have taken on a rescue dog. Their previous dog, a labrador *** died in February. She was a fairly typical lab, guided by her stomach but gentle and soppy as well. After a few months, they decided to get another dog, FIL missed his walks and MIL misses companionship during the days when FIL works (3 days a week,up to 5 hours). MIL is disabled, she has very poor mobility, has poor balance due to severe arthritis and lymphodoema (sp?). FIL is very active, always on the go, one of life's fidgeters!

Soooo, I agreed to go to the rescue centre with FIL (where they got previous dog aged 7 months) to help choose a new dog for them. The 2 of us went three times, looking for a dog aged 1-2 years, medium sized, calm, preferably a ***. There were several "contenders" mostly mongrels, a couple of very gentle staffie's and a few older dogs which MIL dismissed when told about because "she wants no bad habits" grrr.

The centre asked FIL to fill in a form which would help them match the right dog with them. FIL had a shortlist of 3 or 4 and said he would bring MIL to have a look for a final decision.

Later that day, a home check had been done and the In laws decided on "Mungo" a black and white collie cross because the MIL said "he looks like Bella" their lab....

Mungo, soon re-named Pepe (family are Italian) joins them in his new home and everyone thought he was very sweet. He has been with them approximately 4 weeks and I think they have made a big mistake. Pepe is approximately 9 months old and came with no history (came from W elsh pound to this rescue). He is ultra energetic, has torn up their garden, does the wall of death around the house until he crashes into things, runs around with onions trailing from his mouth (FIL has an allotment) so fast his eyes look like they are going to pop out. The worst thing though, is that when he's excited he "play" snaps, sometime leaping off the ground towards your face, if you push him away he goes for your hands and wrists, if you put your hands in the air and turn around he goes for your ankles. I am covered in bruises and welts from fending the dog off and getting pretty fed up. The rest of the family seem to be looking at me for advise because they know I love dogs and have a fair bit of knowledge (none practical) of training methods. The trouble is, I'm only there for a couple of hours 2 days a week. The other day I was clicker training him in the garden, we were doing brilliantly, sit, stay, paw, lie down, all learned super quick, but it was during one of the "downs" that he leapt up at my face to "snap". Then MIL comes into the garden and tries to fend the dog off with a broom... I shout at MIL not to do this, it's dangerous, she will get hurt, the dog may go for her and she would fall. MIL ignores, FIL comes out, yells at the dog, yanks him away by the collar and everyone gets distressed by the whole episode. FIL has mentioned half heartedly a couple of times about going to obedience classes but he's utterly against them because he would see it as a failure on his part that he couldn't train a dog "I've had dogs for 55 years and never gone to one training class"

Pepe gets an hour walk a day but my feeling is that he is bored stupid, he's a collie cross so I think he needs to be "doing" something, maybe agility or flyball, and I would be happy to take him, but it will be impossible until they get some control over the dog. Any ideas gratefully received please!

This is Pepe, on the day he arrived home, before the garden destruction began.


9 replies

Latest activity by Copper, 11 July, 2009 at 22:42
  • cha-cha
    Beginner July 2007
    cha-cha ·
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    Ok, Hitched *said* it ate my post, but it really appeared, so I have deleted this one!

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  • cha-cha
    Beginner July 2007
    cha-cha ·
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    Argh! I just typed out the mother of all replies and blummin Hitched lost it!!!!

    so frustrating!

    Highlight of my post was the following:

    1) My SIL is an animal behaviouralist. I will ask her for advice and get back to you.

    2) Collies, by their very nature, 'nip' things. It's how they herd sheep. Golden rule when dog does something like this is to not react, not even to squeal and pull hand away, as it rewards their negative behaviour with attention. Realise this is difficult though.

    3) Sounds like he's bored, I agree flyball would be perfect! Til then, maybe invest in a Kong, which is a really substantial dog toy he can't destroy, that you stuff full of tastie things so he plays with it to make the goodies fall out.

    4) Has he been neutered?

    OK Hoping Hitched doesn't eat this, and I will reply with SIL advice when she gets back to me Smiley smile

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  • B
    Beginner February 2008
    Boop ·
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    I agree with cha-cha, apart from the flyball bit. Flyball is a really intense, high energy 'sport' that increases adrenaline, winds the dogs up and makes them even more hyper. Many clubs actively promote feeding the dogs a 'supplement' that can only be described as 'speed' for dogs. For a dog with what sounds like a high working drive already then something that is as manic as flyball isn't necessarily a good idea. Agility, although high energy, is also all about control and is a much better way of using both brain and body for the dog.

    I was watching the flyball dogs warm up at Crufts - there were owners there with towels wrapped round their hands and arms because the pent up dogs would re-direct their bites onto the owners. Almost all of the dogs were displaying whale eye and none of them looked like happy, calm dogs - because calm dogs are not what flyball teams want.

    He needs to use his brain, he needs to be taught calmness and self control in a fun and rewarding way, and, to be brutally honest, he probably needs to go back to the rescue and find different owners. Anyone who uses a broom to chase a dog away, and who doesn't think they need training classes because that's an admission of failure probably isn't going to spend the time learning new skills that this dog needs to help him learn what's expected of him.

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  • NickJ
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    Copper, if they decide that they can't deal with the dog then by all means let me know. I've been looking for a dog exactly like this for the past three months.

    I'm not here much these days so if you want to talk about it drop me an email to ********@*********.*** - that will work for a month and I'll send you my real email on receipt of yours.

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  • Copper
    Copper ·
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    Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated. Cha cha, you are right about the trying hard not to react when he's leaping up at you, it's difficult. I try and do the standing still, turning away and not reacting but it's so bloomin difficult when you have a MIL who thinks she needs to "protect" her DIL and get this dog away from me ☹️....

    In answer to the other question, yes he was neutered at the centre so that's sorted. I bought him a kong yesterday funnily enough and filled it with some cheese and treats. When we left the house he was happily "nosing" it around the garden trying to lick the goodies. I hope they will keep this up.

    FIL is burying his head in the sand at the moment. He emphasises every "good" thing he does, like "he's very clever you know, he has learned how to open the conservatory door and he barks when he wants another biscuit"....agghhh I want to scream because these are not what i would call "good" behaviours. I really do think that they have got the wrong type of dog for their lifestyle and experience and it's made me quite cross actually. Cross that the rescue place let a hyper collie type into a home with a disabled inexperienced lady, cross with the in-laws for choosing him "because he looks like Bella" and cross on the dog's behalf for being in the wrong home.

    I think I will try to persuade FIL to try obedience classes with him, I'll go as well if I can. If there is a breakthrough then mabe we could try agility. Boop, I see your point about dog's getting even more hyper with flyball, that's not what we want at all, poor dogs.

    Nick, thankyou ever so much for the kind offer, I have a feeling that there is some sort of clause in the rescue centre agreement that if there are any problems with keeping the dog, he has to go back to them? But, if this is not the case and I get nowhere in helping the in-laws with Pepe I'll certainly point them in your direction. Thank you.

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  • badkitti*
    Beginner October 2007
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    He definitely sounds bored - you can see the collie genes there. What a nice looking dog.

    If your ILs don't want to go to obedience classes (which is excellent for socialising dogs not just training) maybe hjave someone come round to help with the snapping

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  • P
    poochanna ·
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    Ah how sad! I can't really add anything as you've had some really good advice. There's little point in you doing training if everyone else just ignores it. The one thing with dogs is that everyone must follow the same commands or it's pointless.

    9 months is still very young. I think you maybe need to have an honest chat with them and say that if they aren't willing to work with the dog then they need to return him/re-home him. It's a sad thing to do but sometimes it's for the best.

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  • cha-cha
    Beginner July 2007
    cha-cha ·
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    Hi copper! Hope this helps you and your in-laws.

    From my SIL:

    My immediate reaction is go straight to a qualified behavioursit. This sounds like it would be really hard to train esp now the dog is likely to have some fear (FIL and MIL getting angry and threatening with brooms and dragging about etc). I'm not really happy about giving advice second hand when the situation seems so severe but if the FIL refuses to go to obedience classes then I suspect he will refuse to go to a behavioursit too.
    I think he does sound like he is under-stimulated. I would up the walks to three a day if possible. The other two don't have to be as long (although the longer the better) but it will break up the dog's day. Doing as much clicker training as possible and giving him Kongs would be good as well. This normally keeps them relatively quiet for a while. By mixing the dry kibble with grated cheese, microwaving it then freezing it should present a fair challenge to the dog. They might need to use a black Kong if he's a good chewer.
    I will try to find a control of attetnion sheet for you but I don't think I have one ready made. There is too much arousal in the house, from everyone invovled. Things need to be made much calmer. To do this the whole family must ignore the dog completely when he seeks attention or does anything 'naughty'. This involves him coming to play nicely, giving them a sweet look, or bouncing off the walls. Not giving attention includes not talking to him, not looking at him (no eye contact - very important but hard to do) and no touching. So when he jumps up or nips them they must try very hard to completely ignore him. They will probably need to wear protective clothing to do this as it sounds like he is biting quite hard. Long sleeves are a definite and they should even consider wearing wellies in the house to protect their ankles. I hope for them the heat wave is over!
    On the other hand, when the dog is playing by himslef or lying quietly - any desirable, relaxed behaviour - that is not aimed at getting their attention they should call him across and give him a fuss. But they must finish the interaction and give him a clear sign that it is over, such as saying "finish/enough" and making a hand gesture, normally crossed wrists coming apart. It would be a good idea to start off with the interactions being short and calm rather than high energy games or close handling. Certainly finish the interaction before he becomes aroused and gets into his nipping mode. They can then gradually build up the length and level of interaction.
    It is really important that if they start this programme that they all do it 100% of the time and don't give in. If they ignore him for 5 minutes then give him attention (good or bad) then they will have taught him that he just needs to persist for longer!
    If he does something that the owners can't ignore then they should use indirect distraction, no shouting at him or calling him away or chasing him, but they can simply run into another room whooping and waving their arms around. The dog will think that they are doing something much more interseting and stop what he is doing to follow them and find out.
    They musn't use punishment at all. The dog sounds like he may already have some conflict over whether human attention can sometimes be bad. If the owners get all hyped up and start shouting etc, it will only add to his arousal and could even frighten him - this could lead to aggression.
    I would avoid obedience classes as a trainer is unlikely to give suitable advice in this case, however, agility and fun exercise would be great. He seems like a fast learner but maybe one on one classes would be better to begin with as he sounds like he might get distracted by other dogs.

    I think you should encourage your friend to go to a qualified behaviourist (ask her vet to refer her to someone on the Association of the Study of Animal Behaviour's website, or someone at the vet college)

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  • B
    Beginner February 2008
    Boop ·
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    Well, that restores my faith in behaviourists a bit - too many of them are still hung up on dominance, pack theory and the use of 'tools' to fix dogs. It's refreshing to see one who clearly knows what they're talking about.

    The only thing I'd really disagree with is giving this dog another walk each day - all that will do is make him fitter, it won't tire his brain which is what he really needs. Better to spend the time doing some clicker training, in my opinion.

    Be careful with any referral to a behaviourist - there's no nationally accepted qualification that guarantees they know what they're doing and won't go in there with spray collars, rattle bottles or other inappropriate advice. Another place to look for a behaviourist is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors - they insist on academic qualifications before allowing membership, although that doesn't guarantee that they have the practical skills that are also needed it is a good place to start.

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  • Copper
    Copper ·
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    Cha cha, please thank your SIL for the fantastic advice for Pepe and my InLaws. It's all really very useful and I will pass it on.

    My gut feeling is that they won't carry it out though, especially my MIL who would just look at me blankly thinking i had gone mad ☹️ The problem is compounded by her lack of mobility, she physically wouldn't be able to "run into another room whooping and waving her arms around" I think they can handle the calling him over when he shows calm behaviour, I just need to encourage the other bits as well. The most difficult thing is getting everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet though. I'll give it a go, fingers crossed please!

    Boop, thankyou also for the APBC suggestion. I'll look their website up.

    Hitchers are great with advice-thanks so much.x

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