NHS 24 sending Police for a child? (sens re grief)

I think they are interpreting their guidelines a little too literally. If the child's life were in danger due to the actions of an adult, that would be a police matter, yes. This should have been a case for a GP to visit to evaluate the child's state of mind, I'd have thought.

The police on her doorstep is the very last thing she needs right now, poor woman.

Gosh, I agree with what Hooby said. Must have been the last thing she needed.

Oh gawd ? how awful. I think the people who work on NHS Direct/24 have their hands tied a bit where policy is concerned. If x or y is said, then they have to react a certain way. V. defensive practice and all that. But it does lead to foolish situations where it seems that they are overreacting - eg when they sent me an ambulance because I'd answered "yes" to "is the toddler sleepy?" (at 4am, after being ill all day ?)

Gah. Knowledge bases. The bane of every call centre and the enemy of common sense.

That was my thoughts exactly Hooby, it just seemed so extreme. It a must if a child could be in danger obviously but not for something like this. She did speak to a doctor too but I think the police were there before the doctor phoned back.

I did think of it another way too, if the child did see the police and heard them talking about her, she may have thought that her being upset was wrong and that she may be in trouble for being upset. This is just something I thought of, I don't know if she saw the police or not. As it was, she was calmed down by her favourite auntie and went to stay with her and her grandparents for the night, bless her.

Gah, that sounds very frustrating PL and just a teensy bit amusing, looking back I bet!

It must be hard for call handlers to deal with things if they must follow such strict protocol. Does their own initiative not count in circumstances like this? When it first started in Scotland, it was manned by nurses (there was a big hoo ha about it) but I guess it's gone down the medically untrained staff route. The frustrating thing is that (again in Scotland) you can't call your own surgery out of hours, it's all done centrally through NHS24. You used to call your own surgery and they would have a message with the number for the local out of hours practice. There are also no walk in clinics either.

Your poor friend. The child's life wasn't in danger, though, was it? What a weird thing to do, to call the police.

It is frustrating, and why we had an ambulance sent to our house so our toddler could be taken to hospital to be seen by a doctor.

There are no drop in centres. As you say, when you call your doctors out of hour number you are taken straight to NHS24. I havent heard of anyone having a doctor out to their house out of hours in years (is it still done?). I guess the problem would be who to send. An ambulance would have been just as frightening I guess for a hysterical child. The police maybe have more experience with calming people down, although it is extremely OTT. Do social workers/support people work out of hours?

Poor child, I am sure that is the last thing they all needed. ?

It really wasn't Zoay, her mum just wanted a bit of advice on what to do. It seems a bit sledgehammer to crack a nut where a child is concerned.

They still do have out of ours doctors Smiley, they go about in cars with with drivers and green flashing lights but it's very much triaged and they will always try to use the regional out of hours clinic if they can. Maybe you are right about the police being more trained to help calm people down but I can't help wondering if she had seen them, she would have been even more scared. That's hypothetical, obviously.

Thanks for your replies. ?

I think it's very hard to pass complete judgement without knowing the full circumstances such as was the mother extremeley distressed herself? Could she have come across as very helpless and completely at a loss? Did they give her the right to refuse the ambulance?

I think if I was your friend, I would be following some kind of complaints/feedback procedure as it seems clear it wasn't helpful for them at all and perhaps it would prompt a review of their policies and procedures so it doesn't happen again.

I realise she is probably not in a position to do this herself at the moment though. Sorry to hear of this awful news ?

Her mother was/is calm actually, I surprised at how much so. I guess the combination of having to plan the funeral and look after the children has left little time for her own grief, which sadly will no doubt hit her soon. ☹️ I'm not sure about the ambulance but I don't think she was even thinking of trying to get her to hospital, just to get some advice.

It just such a desperately sad situation for all of them, it's just not fair.

sadly that is a huge 'no'. the combination of arse covering and the 'if it isn't on fire, call the police' attitude today tends to prevail alarmingly over common sense. ☹️ if i told you some of the 'concern' calls the police get sent to through other agencies (and this is just for WYP), you would think i was making it up to have a laugh...

but at the end of the day, i'm sure the nhs call taker was doing what they thought was right. its just sad that a slight niggle will lead to an extreme consequence.

basically the call takers attitude would be 'if i don't send someone and the child does x/y/z i would be liable.' so i'll send the police instead, and it's down to them. exactly what robert peel intended, eh?

I think that everyone's still super-twitchy where children are concerned, post Victoria Climbie and "Every Child Matters" etc. No one wants to be the next person hauled through trial by media for not having helped enough.

Last time Elizabeth took an overdose she refused to go in the ambulance that was called - so the police were called who ended up arresting her to take her to hospital in the squad car.

I was fairly horrified but also grateful - she actually was a child in danger so that was appropriate i think [had taken 50+ paracetomol and the policeman was very very concerned]

actually - this has reminded me - i would like to send a thank you to the police who dealt with her cos they were fab..... how would i find out where they were sent from?

meant to say that i think that it seems an over the top reaction to get the police in those circumstances but i think the NHS help people have strict guidlines and would have had little choice other than to call them.

? for your friend and her children - what a terrible thing for them to be having to go thru ?

There is out of hours cover, but it is pared down to the bone (usually one or two managers for the whole local authority), and / or one or two Approved Social Workers who cover Sections - although sometimes the manager is the ASW and does both roles.

Poor family - poor poor children. Sounds like Mum may be holding to together as long as there is stuff that needs doing - you might be more needed Mrs M when everything is calmed down (stating the obvious of here I know).

just write to the divisional headquarters, if you give your address and the date and time they should be able to trace the log. it wasn't that long ago was it? our force keeps archieved logs for six months.

they rarely get any thanks so it would be a lovely thing to do ?

thanks for that - will do it this week. I wanted to update them on how she was now cos they seemed so concerned and helpful and i really do appreciate what they did for us/her. I did thank them at the time but i would like to do it properly. I took biscuits in to the ward as a thank you... i like to show our appreciation iyswim.

? Swampy.

Thanks for your replies. It's sad their hands are so tied, I'm sure some of the call handlers despair at not being able to exercise their common sense.

I've had another long chat this morning with my friend, she's just got so much on her plate. I think the eldest is going to have to see someone who can offer her some help, she seems very confused, upset and angry, which is completely understandable and normal but I'm not sure if her mum alone is going to be able to help her. It's very sad.

I can't say anymore than others have so wanted so send a huge ? your way and I will be thinking of your friend and her family.

So sorry to hear this news, Madge ?

https://winstonswish.org/ is a really great organisation for helping children through bereavement, they have a helpline too.

hth

It wouldn't be duty social work that you'd need it would be the CAMHS team. Some areas have an out of hours CAMHS service, usually an on call child psychiatrist, some areas don't. Often a paediatric ward will hold onto a suicidal child if there is no out of hours cover.

Unfortunately children do actually try to kill themselves in quite some numbers, some are as young as 8 or even younger, some actually manage to kill themselves. so as much as sending the police out may have seemed like an over-reaction, NHS 24 probably aren't trained to assess those situations and I guess would rather take the consequences of over-reacting than of under-reacting.