Photography - owning the images

Hi, we are having a DVD package with our photographer so we can print off any of the photos, including the ones you wouldn't normally have in an album. when we were looking into this, a lot of photographers seemed to offer this as an option. where abouts do you live?

We're getting married in Egham, Surrey next June (2009).

Photographers lose the ability to sell additional prints if they give away their high resolution images. Also they are concerned that you will take them to the local snappy snaps and print them out in low quality and then people will think that this is the general quality of their work.

We do give away images at the top end of the packages that we sell. I figure that if you are paying so mutch then you deserve to get the images to do with as you want. Our packages can be seen on the website athttp://www.pixcellence.co.uk but you will have to email me if you need to know the prices.

Clwyd
Wedding Photography @ Pixcellence

quote:Originally posted by Blondie_2009
We're getting married in Egham, Surrey next June (2009).

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My photographer would be of no use to you then - we're west mids! would you be happy having a DVD/CD of the pics to print yourselves or would you want the actual negatives? if its just to be able to print off your own and a DVD would be suffice, I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem. we were told many a time that being able to print off lots of pics for yourself was becoming more popular, so packages are being adjusted accordingly - keep searching!!

quote:Originally posted by maisybelle

quote:Originally posted by Blondie_2009
We're getting married in Egham, Surrey next June (2009).

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My photographer would be of no use to you then - we're west mids! would you be happy having a DVD/CD of the pics to print yourselves or would you want the actual negatives? if its just to be able to print off your own and a DVD would be suffice, I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem. we were told many a time that being able to print off lots of pics for yourself was becoming more popular, so packages are being adjusted accordingly - keep searching!!

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You wouldn't get negatives though would you if they were using a digital camera?

Agree with everything London photographer has said plus also bear the following in mind:

Photography is an art form. Photographs are displayed on the wall in galleries, etc alongside paintings. At the end of the day, when your photographer takes a photos he/she is capturing their interpretation of the day. Plus, very few (if any) good photographers will show you their images straight out of the camera, there are several days worth of work that goes into processing your photos to makes them look their best. Different photographers will do more or less depending on their style and this processing can also involve an element of artistic creation.

The top photographers out there often attain this position because their work is distinctive and specific to them, much like any other artist. The final step of creating the finished photo is the final print stage and a lot of photographers like to keep control over this because, as London Photographer has said, they don't want their work to become associated with cheap prints from Asda. Most photographers will calibrate their photos to work with their chosen printer for the best print quality. So just as you wouldn't expect a painter to paint a picture and give it away for free. Why do you expect your photographer to do so?

Chickaroonee - no you dont get the negatives. in our package we'll have a DVD of all photos taken and a number printed by the photographer (she says, rummaging in paperwork to find out the number, as she's forgotten!!). they also agree that if we want an album at a later date they will do so.

i can completely see where the above posts are coming from, but at the end of the day you are paying for a service and need to make sure that service is reflective of what you actually want. for me, it was lots and lots of photos - the quality of the material they're printed on was secondary.

We are having an album and a collge of pictures in a big frame on the wall and we are buying the rights to the photos which is costing about £350 on top of the album etc we are only letting our parents and sibings know about this and they can have what they want. I don't want to have to start taking orders for photos so for the rest of the guests they can buy them from the photographer from his website. Its really important for me to have the pictures, as they are of us and I want to do what i want with them

quote:Originally posted by maisybelle
chickaroonee - no you dont get the negatives. in our package we'll have a DVD of all photos taken and a number printed by the photographer (she says, rummaging in paperwork to find out the number, as she's forgotten!!). they also agree that if we want an album at a later date they will do so.

i can completely see where the above posts are coming from, but at the end of the day you are paying for a service and need to make sure that service is reflective of what you actually want. for me, it was lots and lots of photos - the quality of the material they're printed on was secondary.

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Sorry Maisy, what I meant was surely there aren't any negatives because the pictures haven't been taken on film? They'll just be digital images, which you're getting...I think!

quote:Originally posted by chickaroonee

quote:Originally posted by maisybelle
chickaroonee - no you dont get the negatives. in our package we'll have a DVD of all photos taken and a number printed by the photographer (she says, rummaging in paperwork to find out the number, as she's forgotten!!). they also agree that if we want an album at a later date they will do so.

i can completely see where the above posts are coming from, but at the end of the day you are paying for a service and need to make sure that service is reflective of what you actually want. for me, it was lots and lots of photos - the quality of the material they're printed on was secondary.

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Sorry Maisy, what I meant was surely there aren't any negatives because the pictures haven't been taken on film? They'll just be digital images, which you're getting...I think!

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oops - yes you're right! ?

Some very useful advice here. Thanks to the photogrpahers that have replied - I agree that photographing is an artform and each 'artist' has different styles that they do not wish to be compromised.

But I also agree with maisybelle - we want to capture every image and moment on the day - which means we want the entire record of the day, even the bits we dont witness in person- not necessarily to print from (because I dont want to compromise on quality either!) but just as a perminant life long record.[:I]

It is so difficult and such an important decision.
You cant go back and run the day again can you!?

If you want digital images, then our photographer is right on the doorstep of Egham.
He'll supply you with all of the images taken (no matter how many) for you to get printed and to mount in your own choice of album...
As the other photographer stated though, a good quality print shop should be used for your images, as they often sort out colour corrections etc, whereas other 'cheap' printers don't.

E-mail through our profile if you want his website details.
?

Slightly off topic, but who is your photographer Maisybelle? We are north Warks and are very keen to get a DVD of the photos but are less bothered about an album.

Lots of stuff to consider here

Having a DVD of the images doesn't mean you own the images, or have copyright to do what you want

It only means you have a DVD, which probably has a restrictive licence or reproductive copyright

Example
If I shoot a photograph of 2 models shaking hands in-front of the Eifell tower at night then there are a whole range of issues

The models will have contracts, and will only want the images displayed within a certain context. The light show on the Eiffel tower is subject to its own copyright restrictions, and selling the photographs commercially will require written permission and a fee to change hands. I own the absolute copyright for the shot

Now if I sell the photograph at a stock agency, the price will depend on the page in the magazine it goes on, the size, the distribution, and will be time limited. Purchasing exclusivity to the shot will multiply the price ten twentyfold


If my customer then prints the image on page 1, not 3, or syndicates it.. they will owe me money etc.

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What does this have to do with wedding photography??

I as the photographer own the copyright. the shots are of a commercial value to me - for reprints, advertising, competitions.. and god forbid, you might turn into tomorrow's Jordan or Kyle. Long term the shots might be sell able as a fashion indicator for the year 2008, or if generic enough may have some stock value

(I'm not saying I care for all of these BTW)

Now I have a responsibility to you.. maintain the archive, honour my contract

I have a legal responsibility to notice things like artworks that may have their own copyright restrictions

Etc..

Thats why in the main, although you get a disk, you never "own" the images, the photographer does. Check before you distribute them on face book, or digitally manipulate them, or print them for your whole family, you may be "bending" the spirit of the agreement you have

Richard

A lot of photographers will give you printing rights, but you will pay more for it usually, almost none will give you the copyright to the images.

Eeek, this sounds like a minefield!

If we want a beautiful album full of pictures, parents albums, a handful of other pictures (perhaps enlargments) AND the images to keep (by us) for eternity - what do I need to be asking for? - and what is this likley to cost?

You need to ask for the above, but expect the DVD to have a limited copyright.. In a sense you are not loosing out on anything - you can print the images, where ever you wnat, and so long as you are not selling them, or distributing them, then you will not normally have any problems

Ask the photographer how long they keep the images for, ask what their strategy is for maintaining the archive as technology moves forwards

Bone up on archival quality DVD's and storing DVD's

Ask this question.. Can you read a floppy disk from the 80's? on your current PC?


Waht you are asking for is the sort of thing we do all the time - where are you getting married?

Just to clarify my previous post. I was just trying to indicate that, while a lot of photographers nowadays (us included) can provide you with your photos from the day on CD/DVD you should expect to pay extra for the privilege for all the reasons previously stated and you shouldn't automatically expect that this will be part of the package.

Blondie, for clarity, you just need to ask for a CD/ DVD of all images with reproduction rights. This gives you the right to reproduce any of the images (i.e. print) for personal use which I think is what you want. However, you are not allowed to sell the images for commercial gain or alter them in anyway as this would be in breech of copyright which, in most cases, remains with the photographer.

A couple of things to look out for:
- A DVD slideshow is different to a CD/ DVD of images. With a DVD slideshow the images will play in sequence like a movie but (unless specified) you won't be able to access individual images.
- Make sure you are given full size copies of the files or at least printable up to 12"x8". Some photographers will only provide small files suitable for 6"x4" printing.
- If you are planning to use the images on internet networking sites like Facebook then just double check with your photographer that they are OK with this. This is because, when you post images on some of these sites, in their terms and conditions you actually automatically hand over some copyright rights to them and if you don't own the copyright of the images to start with there could be issues with this. Some photographers avoid this by posting the images for you and tagging them so they are in your galleries.

We came back off our honeymoon to a disk waiting for us. It contained 600 reportage photos of our day and it was lovely to look through them like it was a story.

We also get to keep that CD to do what we like with but that's what we asked for.
The reason for this is he was just starting up in Wedding photography so wanted someones wedding to shoot and we offered. He was fantastic.

Where are you?

We agree. Our basic package does not include a full set of high resolution images. The high end packages do include a complete set, but these are released with a limited, non-commercial (c). ie you can print them or distribute them as you like but you can't sell them, so if Hello Magazine calls and says they want the pictures then you have to refer them back to us! Again it is important to understand the distinction between processed and raw images. An image taken straight from the camera is very rarely used 'as is' in an album and probably will not look too good if printed directly. It really needs to be 'developed' ie worked on using the latest software to get the best out of it. This is what we do with album prints and any print orders that we get. Many people think that because they get the digital negatives then they can produce the same quality as the photographer and this is very rarely the case. A great photograph is 10% camera equipment, 50% photographer skills and 40% printing and post production.

Pixcellence Wedding Photography

It is impossible to do this on the 2000 images that we tend to shoot at an average wedding. If you look at our website at www.pixcellence.co.uk you will see that we do a lot of Asian wedding photography. These weddings tend to be long and last for several days, we often shoot 3000+ images. There is no way that we can process this amount of data and provide it in top quality ready for printing. So asking for digital negatives or high resolution copies is not always the best way to get great images.

quote:Originally posted by BeccyB
Just to clarify my previous post. I was just trying to indicate that, while a lot of photographers nowadays (us included) can provide you with your photos from the day on CD/DVD you should expect to pay extra for the privilege for all the reasons previously stated and you shouldn't automatically expect that this will be part of the package.

Blondie, for clarity, you just need to ask for a CD/ DVD of all images with reproduction rights. This gives you the right to reproduce any of the images (i.e. print) for personal use which I think is what you want. However, you are not allowed to sell the images for commercial gain or alter them in anyway as this would be in breech of copyright which, in most cases, remains with the photographer.

A couple of things to look out for:
- A DVD slideshow is different to a CD/ DVD of images. With a DVD slideshow the images will play in sequence like a movie but (unless specified) you won't be able to access individual images.
- Make sure you are given full size copies of the files or at least printable up to 12"x8". Some photographers will only provide small files suitable for 6"x4" printing.
- If you are planning to use the images on internet networking sites like Facebook then just double check with your photographer that they are OK with this. This is because, when you post images on some of these sites, in their terms and conditions you actually automatically hand over some copyright rights to them and if you don't own the copyright of the images to start with there could be issues with this. Some photographers avoid this by posting the images for you and tagging them so they are in your galleries.

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Bit of confusion with terms, there is copyright and reproduction rights. Copyright is ownership, reproduction rights is the ability to reproduce the images.

You just need reproduction rights unless your planning to sell the images! Just check your individual contract with the photographer you go with.

Don't worry, it sounds complicated but the reality is very simple.

A lot of rules and guidelines are ignored for practical reasons. For example there is no way I'm going to worry about photographing the rolls royce sign on your car, get a signed model release from every guest (or parental guardian if under 1? or edit out all pictures that show the brand of champange your drinking! Funnily enough I won't give your verbal instructions in Welsh while signing them for the hearing impaired either. I will make sure anybody who is disabled or infirm can be included with the groups. Keeping it real, there really isn't a lot you need to worry about. The only funny is the signing of the regsiter 'cos the jobsworth registrar will always claim it's data protection, even when it's a new page and yours is the only data on there.?

It's a wedding, it's photography, sod the red tape and lets just get on with it!!!?

quote:Originally posted by jules.40
I really have a problem with all this, in my opinion if i want pictures of me, my family or my wedding taking and I pay someone to take them, I dont see why it gives them the right to use them as they please,what next, my decorator bringing people into my living room to see what hes done? I am not disputing photography is an art form, thats why you pay the photographer so much money, but its still a service you have paid for.Imagine paying an artist to paint you in the nude, only to find he did two paintings and you are now on display in the local shop window.
And to end my rant..one of my work colleagues had to deal with a paedophile who got off on little girls in white dresses...guess what he had lots of pics of kids he had collected, now how do you feel about some pervert getting off on a picture of your cute little flower girl that somebody else owns the rights to and you cant do a thing about it???

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you don't need to have an issue, we cant' do what you just suggested, its against the law.

Just becuase we 'own' the rights doesn't mean we can do what we want with them.

For example if I took a picture of a bride in her suspenders, in her home and released it that would be a breach of the clients right to privacy under the copyright act, unless she had signed a model release form.

Where the picture is taken where somebody may reasonably be expected to be photographed, such as a place accessible to the public a picture can be released....but, if it's defamatory then we can be sued. For example bride exits church on high street, that picture can go on a billboard no problem. Same picture used with a caption, 'he'll never know she was an ex-prostitute' and your looking at a serious case of libel.

So what it boils down to is if you don't want the public to see you, don't go to a public place where you can bee seen and possibly photographed. If you don't want a photographer you commission to shoot you in a private place to release pictures, don't sign a model release form.

Simple really!

quote:Originally posted by BlurpImpala
Slightly off topic, but who is your photographer Maisybelle? We are north Warks and are very keen to get a DVD of the photos but are less bothered about an album.

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www.jasonbeddard.com he's a really lovely man, based in Redditch but willing to travel ?

I know it's not for everyone, and our images won't be the most top quality ever but we're doing our own photos- H2B, me, my brother and dad will all be pitching in. That means we get huge quantities of shots, with people we feel totally at ease with and they are totally our pictures.

It's not for everyone as I say, and some wedding photographers are really awesome. We just found that the last 3 wedding albums we saw were very disappointing, and I could not risk the cost on something so amateurish. One friend in particular had 30 photos costing almost £1k and all were no better than the ones we took.

We're on a budget and felt the 'photographer fund' could be much better spent.

Hi,

We sell a DVD of all the finished images which gives the clients "print only" rights. We do not sell copyright, as I would suspect no other photographer would.
At the end of the day we are in business to photograph a client's wedding and provide them with images. Whatever the client wants we try our best to provide. The only thing we don't provide is copyright.

For information, nobody has ever asked us for copyright anyway ?

Dean

We get a DVD of all the pics of our day, with albums over a certain price.

We provide a DVD (both a slideshow and high res pics) with all our weddings.

Ultimately that is our choice, and maybe it helps to get bookings. I am also aware that I would much rather the client printed a high res image at boots etc that take a print and scan it and then print the scan which (lets face it) many people would do. Copyright and a contract for that matter is only any good when things go wrong. Will a photographer take you to court because somehow he found out you gave a copy to a friend scanned from a print. I doubt it,. Can most people copy dvd nowadays, answer yes. How many people copy music either cd or online , loads.

Most business comes from referral and word of mouth recommendation. People generally shout about the bad service rather than the good, I wonder how popular it would be if the BBC brought out programmes that were the opposite of Watchdog or Rogue Traders. Imagine, "Tonight on GoodDog, Fred the plumber fitted a tap for an old lady and gave her a discount, also Mr & Mrs Smith had a nice holiday, and also Vauxhall have a produced a car and the handbrake actually works (personal experience)."

I like the comment about the decorator, if a plumber fitted me with a new tap I would not expect to pay him / her everytime I used it either. So essentially decide on what you want and ask how much it is and like all things read your contract (just in case).

There was a good example in the Times Newspaper a couple of years ago about if and Airline Sold Paint

Hi, how much is your paint?
Well that depends.
Depends on what?
Actually, a lot of things.
How about giving me an average price?
That#%92s too hard a question. The lowest price is £9 a gallon and we have 150 prices up to £200 a gallon.
What#%92s the difference in the paint?
Oh, there isn#%92t any difference, it#%92s all the same paint.
Well then, I#%92d like some of that £9 paint.
When do you intend to use it?
Tomorrow.
Sir, the paint for tomorrow costs £200.
What! When would I have to paint in order to get £9 paint?
That would be in 3 wks time, but you#%92ll have to start painting before Friday and continue painting until at least Sunday.



rant over

cheers

tom

Wow! Now that was a long and interesting post! All is said I think. Copyright laws can be a tad tedious to understand. But anyway, you're getting married in Surrey and you want a CD of all the images and I do offer that option, like many other photographers I believe. I'm based in London, so next door really, so if you're still looking for a photographer, here's my website url: pascalerphotography.com

I hope you will find what you're looking for.
Good luck with your planning.
Pascale.

Thank you all for your feedback - very intersting points and things are alot clearer now.

Our photographer is near you and does that package (its what we are having too)

www.shootinghip.com

quote:Originally posted by jules.40
And to end my rant..one of my work colleagues had to deal with a paedophile who got off on little girls in white dresses...guess what he had lots of pics of kids he had collected, now how do you feel about some pervert getting off on a picture of your cute little flower girl that somebody else owns the rights to and you cant do a thing about it???

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There is no excuse for this(and I know what I would like to do with paedos)..
If this is of concern, find out if the photographer is CRB checked.
My own checks have been at both CRB levels and also by the Navy for when I was doing a non wedding job at the Festival of the Sea in Portsmouth.
That said, photographically, sometimes children initially do not want to be photographed and need a bit of coaxing in order to get the right shot. This may require a bit more time and a few wasted shots. Once you have gained their trust(with parents always present)they relax and give you the shot that you are after for the parents.

quote:Originally posted by Peter

quote:Originally posted by jules.40
And to end my rant..one of my work colleagues had to deal with a paedophile who got off on little girls in white dresses...guess what he had lots of pics of kids he had collected, now how do you feel about some pervert getting off on a picture of your cute little flower girl that somebody else owns the rights to and you cant do a thing about it???

id="quote">
There is no excuse for this(and I know what I would like to do with paedos)..
If this is of concern, find out if the photographer is CRB checked.
My own checks have been at both CRB levels and also by the Navy for when I was doing a non wedding job at the Festival of the Sea in Portsmouth.
That said, photographically, sometimes children initially do not want to be photographed and need a bit of coaxing in order to get the right shot. This may require a bit more time and a few wasted shots. Once you have gained their trust(with parents always present)they relax and give you the shot that you are after for the parents.

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As a self employed photographer you can no longer get yourself CRB checked. They simply won't accept applications from the self employed anymore.

I'm in the process of getting one done now, but I'm having to do it through my friends company as wants me to do a job for him at a local school. I cant apply individually. Stupid really.

What you can ask for is an 'access form' which is a police check by the police.

Eitehr way it just shows your photographer isn't (or hasn't been caught!), nothing about where the images end up.