Poss sens... For those who choose not to have children

View quoted message

I'm glad i've made you feel 'normal'. If anything I seem to have become a bit detached from my closest friends that have children because I don't think/feel the way they do about children, possibly because they each have more than one child so don't see having one as a big deal, whereas I find it hard work at times.

On the subject of people quizzing others about why they don't have children- whenevr this topic is raised on here, lots of people say they've come under pressure from friends and family to have children and have been quizzed about their reasons not to, had their views dismissed etc.

This all seems so incredibly rude. I wondered just how common it was. Obviously noone is ever going to post "yet another day has gone past without anyone quizzing me on my child-free status" so it may be that there are actually lots of child-free people who don't get this sort of unwanted pressure. Child-free hitchers, do you get it or not? (I'm talking about genuine pressure and inapproriate questions, not just a passing Q- "do you think you'll ever have kids?"- from a friend.)

Fortunately having two businesses seems to make it a lot harder to find time for socialising than having kids, so I mostly don't have to address the issue of seeing/not seeing people much

L
xx

Gosh, just came back to this thread and had no idea that it would get so many replies. You thoughts are interesting, from both perspectives. I am keen to stay in touch with my friends, as they are the only people that I've made an effort to stay in touch with from school. I can't imagine them not in my life. I do currently have friends without children but eventually I think I'll be the only one. I find it hard to accept change sometimes, but I'll just have to get over myself. I'm also lucky that I'm very happy with my H and find him easy to talk to, although he doesn't always understand my point of view.

It is very good to know that you can make friendships work with some effort from both sides.

I have one nephew (through my H's sister) and I don't think I've any hope in getting him to look after me when I'm old! I'll have to train some dogs to do it instead!

View quoted message

Obv I have children but Mr P had a really bad habit of getting almost evangelical about having children. I had to (almost literally) beat it out of him and explain how totally inappropriate it was as he just didn't get it and thought our kids were so ruddy wonderful everyone should have them. It was mortifying for everyone (inc him once he realised what a twat he was being) until the penny dropped and he shut up and stopped being a nob about it all.

View quoted message

I can honestly say I have only had one inappropriate comment in my life, and that was about 15 years ago from a colleague, who, when I said I didn't want children, said: "Don't you think that's unnatural?" ?? Since then, nada. But I have been in and out of relationships/single for a fair bit of that time - I think one's far more likely to get the comments if one's in a long relationship. I'm also quite up-front with my views on being child-free.

View quoted message

yes i get that a lot, from people that don't really know me (like work colleagues) and more recently after 10 years of acceptance my mother has started hinting again, which is nice. My actual friends are generally great, we almost always go through a "it'll be your turn next" phase from friends when they get pregnant which is irritating as it makes out that our carefully thought out decision is actually a non decision and we're just waiting to make the decision to have children, which we're not, but they are just so excited about their new life stage they think everyone should have the same I suppose.

I regularly get the "you'd be a great mother" thing from some people, but not from those who know me (not that they think i wouldn't be, hopefully ? they just don't say it)

I never answer the question "why?" in general as some of my reasons might upset people with children or make us sound like freaks and its a very long list and a choice that we don't have to defend, i just assure people that there are many well thought out reasons and its not about holidays..

On the original post, yes friendships change but how much they change depends on you and your friends, some of my favourite people are those that I only met since they have had children so new friendships with people who have children are not impossible when child free.

View quoted message

I don't know if it applies to me because I am pregnant at the moment, but I had lots of people asking me in a very rude way about why I have not had kids yet. It used to get me so wound up that my H told them to stop asking us. I find a very rude question and not something I would ever dream of asking. From reading BT, I know that there are a lot of people having problems and for people to ask every time that they saw you, that is just wrong imo. I have told these people as well, but they just don't listen, needless to say, I see less and less of them now.

To answer the OP - I now have only one friend without children. All my other friends have at least one child. When my best friend has her baby I didn't see much of her for a while but that was partly one of those 'things' that happen anyway and partly because she chose to socialise more with others who had kids (as a mini support network I guess) - which was fine with me, I totally understood, and at the time I had more childless friends. Now that her son is 3 though (and other things have changed) I see her more than I see anyone else.

I usually offer to go to friends' places rather than expect them to come to mine - I know my house isn't child-friendly and I'd far rather see a child happy in its own environment than be forced to be on 'best behaviour' at my house. I also like to host but I will cook at friends' houses if I get the urge.

Most of my friends' kids are a bit older now (3+) and I never thought I'd say it, but I really enjoy spending time with them and their children. I play with the kids, get cuddles etc and have none of the bad bits (like cleaning up vomit!) All the kids adore me and get excited when I come to visit, my friend's son cries when I have to leave as he enjoys spending time with me so much.

To answer Knownowt's question about inappropriate questions / comments, I have had a few in the past (including one from a GP who expressed surprise that I'd never been pregnant). I find the best way to head them off is to split up from your husband ? The most recent questioner was my friend, she knows I've never really wanted kids but asked me exactly why and I actually found some of my answers surprising to myself! But in this case it wasn't inappropriate or putting on pressure.

I think the thing about being quizzed as to why you don't have children is probably age-related. When we were newly married and in our late 20s, we had this ALL the time especially as all our peers around us were also getting married and starting families almost instanteanously. But now, with H just turned 40 and me only a month away, quelle surprise, the questioning has stopped. Mind you, the vasectomy might have had something to do with that .... ?

View quoted message

Honestly and I know I will get flamed for this, I think children are what you make them. I know that personalities vary and I have one very naughty niece but my brother and sister have always classed her as "hard work" and give in to her for an easy life. I think they've created the issue, well maybe made it worse as she does have a willful personality anyway. Several of my friends have a parenting style that I really admire. Their children have to fit in with their lives. Not in a neglectful way but they have tried to maintain a balance and from word go they have set things in place so that they can have some freedom. Things like having the baby stay at grandparents from weeks old etc and taking them to places and getting them to behave in different environments. So i don't believe that it's the baby/child that creates an issue I think it's more about how the parents want that issue to be, so lie you say using it as a bit of an excuse.

View quoted message

You're the kind of person who would be great at whatever you decided to turn your hand to, I reckon, as long as it was something you were actually interested in.

Must get book club started, a child-free bookclub (but not necessarily free from children's books!).

View quoted message

Lovely in principle but that's pretty much dependent on whether you have grandparents or other family and friends local to you and physically well enough (and willing!) to be able to deal with multiple night wakenings, and of course, not breast feeding or breast feeding but having a child that is happy to take bottles and boobs that are good at expressing and a small child that does not need to be in bed with your to sleep longer than 15 mins at a time.... I could go on ?

I'm not flaming you but not wishing to leave your small baby or not being able to leave your small baby does not mean you have not got a baance in your life or that you are creating problems. ? It means you have a small child whose welfare is more important than yours at this point in time and so you have to put aside some of things you enjoy to take care of it.

I do/have done this not because I don't care about my friends but because I know this is a small period in my life and that any good friends I have will understand this.

View quoted message

People are very rude about it and it seems to be one topic where people feel they can ask very personal questions. I even had one lady at a wedding (a random I was seated next to) pull me over to the bar and tell me I was making a huge mistake and I'd never ben fulfilled unless I had a child ? I also find that when people ask and I say "No we don't want children" they look at you like you've just said "Yes, we love to grill children on a BBQ each Sunday and eat them with salad". It's a very bizarre thing and I do feel as though I have to justify the decision, when really I should just say "none of your business you nosey bugger" ?

View quoted message

I do agree with you to some extent but it's becoming abundantly clear to me that in addition to those "nurture" type things there is a huge dose of nature that you just can't deny. Some children are high needs from the off. Some become more so as they grow. Sometimes that changes, sometimes it can be channelled into positive directions as they grow up.

Not a flaming at all, but I simply could not have left C with anyone from 4 weeks, for very good, practical reasons. It wouldn't be all that easy to leave her overnight even now at 14 months. But taking her to places, yes, different environments, absolutely. I've pretty much taken the view that I would do what I wanted to do and she would come along and join in and learn as a result. Obviously there are practical considerations that change that as she gets older (she does really need to be in bed by 7 these days and if we're eating I need some form of high chair) but the theory is still there.

View quoted message

Absolutely WZS.

I can't leave my baby with grandparents as I breastfeed, my parents live overseas and my inlaws are so loopy I wouldn't trust them with a sea monkey, let alone a baby. None of this means I'm creating problems or lack of balance in my life.

By necessity we see out friends less at the moment - having a non-sleeping, 4 month old milk vampire in your life does rather cut out the wild partying and heavy drinking of yesteryear

View quoted message

That was one very small example, hence the etc, I was by no means saying that was the be all an end all of parenting, I'm not an idiot!

I don't have children so I can only go on my friends/Family and how they have coped with the having a baby and I know that some of the children are much more adjusted to new environments and going to strange places than others.

View quoted message

It's not an every day question, but we do get the question a lot. Or the "you'll be next", "only you left", "why wouldn't you want to", ... Luckily my mum hasn't pressured us, she is upset that she won't ever have any grandchildren (I have 2 older sisters and we've all decided not to have kids). And MrNeo's mum probably wouldn't even dare to bring up the subject. But so many of our friends and cousins just keep asking. Most of them have figured out that it's not the topic to have with us, as I can get a bit heated on it now, but there's always some who will just not accept that we really don't want kids and are convinced that we will regret it.

A couple of months ago I had to go to my gp for a repeat prescription for the pill, I had never seen this doctor (group practice, and I avoid it as much as possible). I vaguely asked about sterilisation and she flat out said "no, you're only 30, you will change your mind". She had never seen me before, didn't know the first thing about me and comes up with an answer like that. I was fuming! It's things like that annoy me the most, people who don't or hardly know you, saying that you will have kids. Or that you are selfish if you don't have kids (had that one quite a few times). Even had the "it's against God's will" once or twice. It just seems so hard for a lot of people to accept that some people do not want kids.

View quoted message

I don't think that's all down to parenting styles, though it definitely can have an affect. Sometimes your child just develops into velcro kid overnight for a few weeks. There's also sometimes a long term benefit to doing things differently in the short term eg by keepng baby with you at all times in the early days, responding to their 'demands' etc you build security in the long run.

View quoted message

WHS. Despite what some of the parenting "experts" would have you believe ([cough] ginaford [cough]) babies aren't blank slates. Even newborns have their own personalities and can differ widely from each other - and then, just as you think you've got a handle on what type of baby you have, they go and change. It surprised the hell out of me when I had my first son and it was obvious from the start that he wasn't mine he was his.

View quoted message

I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm pointing out that it's not as easy as parents should put themselves first sometimes.... I wish it was!

As you say, children are mcuh more easy going than others, some are much more chilled, and as much as I'd like to take credit for R's usually sunny demeanour, I couldn't hand on heart say that it's not just luck rather than good management. I really feel for my mates with high maintenance children, they get themselves into a bit of a loop of not wanting to take child out because it ends in disaster/embarassment so then child doesn't get the experience, so when they do go out it ends in...

View quoted message

I do agree with that and that's why I gave the example that my niece has a willful personality. It's there and would be present in some form no matter what they did but they have made it a lot worse by going after an easy life and giving into her (which they recognise and have spoken about). Another niece was never away from my SIL and I mean never, since having children my brother and SIL haven't had an evening out alone, not even a lunch. She didn't go to nursery and as such is now struggling with school and making friends. My SIL now moans about how clingy she is! I know that's an extreme case and I am not saying that a child should be strapped to your back and taken clubbing but I do think that some parents choose for their children to become all encompassing, which I have no problem with at all, it's their choice but they shouldn't moan about it and say "Oh we can't come out we have a child" when in actual fact in most cases they could if they wanted to (taking out extreme cases and where there's no friends/family network to babysit).

I get comments quite often about when I'm having babies. I'm very maternal, I adore babies so when anyone sees me with a child, they tell me I should have my own. I don't mind explaining my situation to them once but when they know I'm not currently able to and still ask again, I want to boof them on the nose with my crutches.

ETA that I think my relationship with friends have actually grown since they had babies. I'm much more a daytime person though so that suits my mum friends. ?

View quoted message

They sound rather extreme cases! In my experience, most mothers are usually pretty desperate to hand their children over and escape for a few hours as soon as they feel their child is able to cope with it!

Answering the original question, I think like most people that it comes down to the type of friends you have and how good the relationships actually are. Ours have been, by and large, pretty rubbish and we both feel isolated as a result.

We were talking about it over the weekend and realised that it has actually knocked our confidence in ourselves - because we've effectively been deserted by so many friends now that we realise we weren't much liked in the first place [shrug] and we seem unable to make new ones. I get so nervous in social situations these days that I drink too much, get too loud and opinionated and generally alienate people - I've pretty much stopped going out. Not how I wanted to be but like all things I hope this phase will pass and new people and experiences are just around the corner.

Yep - see what you mean now Pooch.

As Zeb says, most of us are happy to hand them over ?

That said, there is sometimes an expectation from non-parents (and other parents) that this should happen earlier/more easily than you think. One of my friends (a mum herself) told me in no uncertain terms she thought I was being a martyr because I wasn't sure I could leave C for an evening at 5 months, despite me explaining that she usually fed all evening. I was still willing to go out but just said that I'd have to bring C. Another friend had such hideous PND she barely left the house for 2 years.

Obviously I'm swinging to extremes as well, but I do wonder sometimes If we have a bit of a communication issue sometimes. Parents don't always explain the reasons, maybe non-parents/other parents/grandparents/busybodies don't always get the reasons.

View quoted message

I think this is probably true.

And sometimes people underestimate the childess. Someone earlier said they wouldn't sleep over somewhere with their baby, or have people to sleep over as the baby still wakes a lot at night. Well i wouldn't mind that. For me it would be a one or two night thing, I know it's a semi-permenant state for the parents. I don't mind friends with small children bringing them to my house - I know they will be inquisitive, maybe puke on the sofa, pull books of shelves - that's part and parcel of being small, parents don't need to apologise for everything - I really don't mind, and know it isn't their fault!

Boop ?. I'm really sorry to hear that some of your friends have been so crap and that it's knocked your confidence. I certainly know what it's like to drink too much through nerves and it's horrid and can be a vicious circle, as you end up feeling even worse about yourself. FWIW I think you're lovely and that your friends are lucky to have you. I don't know what to say, really, except that I hope you start feeling better about yourself soon and that lots of lovely new friends are just round the corner.

View quoted message

WSS - you always seem to have so many exciting things on the go, perhaps your friends think you are hard to keep up with and presume you'll have better things to do. I'm sure it's more likely that (or some other fairly crap reason) than people not liking you, that seems very unlikely to me.

What KN and Zeb said. Boop, you are great fun, very friendly and kind, incredibly interesting and if thats really what your friends think then I'm hard pressed to understand exactly what they want from a friend- the impossible?

It's really interesting to hear the viewpoint from the other side of the fence. I've never really stopped to think about it from a parents' perspective especially with regard to being constantly on edge when with your children at the houses of friends or all the practicalities such as breast feeding, travel logistics, night time disturbances and things which make life much much more complicated and though whilst our friends with children undoubtedly want to socialise more than they are able to sometimes the children need's have to come first and from the sounds of things sometimes they just simply don't have the energy!??

Put simply hats off to all you parents out there you have a job for a lifetime and I know it's something I could never measure up to but have mucho respect for those of you that do. ?

Also I wanted to say to Boop that I think you're fab and you so deserve more from your friends and i really hope they realise what a lovely, funny, bright and great person you are and that they ought to make way more of your company than they do at present. By the way I too drink to much and get progressively louder and opinionated....we ought to be friends and then we could be loud and opinionated together!

We're in the same boat as many here too, mid 30s, no desire to have kids, but more friends have or are planning kids, including my sister.

We have one group of friends with 7 kids between 4 couples and either meet at people's houses with all the kids, which is very hectic or they all get babysitters and we go out for dinner. We meet other non parent friends more often, have them round for dinner as a foursome or go out and TBH have much more in common with them. With my sister who's 6 months pregnant they haven't been to ours in that time as she has issues being in the car (she hates driving anyway) but I'm hoping they will come and visit us with the baby as well as us going to theirs and meeting at our Mum's.