Really interesting artice re Jamie Oliver's new programme

Fair enough. That's an entirely different can of worms (that I won't be opning just now).

Exactly.

When I first moved to London I used to do this for just myself and it was a bloody nightmare, and I still used to have to make some trips to the off-licence shops in between to stock up. Equal opportunity taken as read, men are much better at carrying heavy stuff than women.

Not being preachy or sitting on a high horse or whatever it is- but I did it and so did a lot of other mums that I knew; and yes it was terriable ( espcially as it took aboit 5 mins to struggle on and struggle off the bus with everyone tutting and no bugger would give me a seat) but it can be done. Although it can push many to think " bugger it" as its too much bother but it is cheaper and better for the children.

I know, its just that, that's exactly what my mother did. My brother in the pram, my sister on some wierd seat contraption and me walking along beside.

Once a week she walked the 4 mile round trip to Sainsbury's to load up the pram with tins and other "speciality" items. Twice a week she walked us to the butcher and grocer at the end of the road. I'm sure it was bloody hard, but she did it, just like her mother before her - everybody did.

I don't really understand what has changed so much in the last 30 years, that this is no longer seen as a viable choice.

From a practical point of view, a big sturdy carriage pram can hold a fair weight of shopping. A flimsy stroller, as is de rigeur these days (and is your only bet for getting on the bus) can't carry more than one half-filled carrier.

Probably because now the alternatives are easier. 30 years ago there weren't branches of Iceland in every town, and your choice of takeaway was probably more limited. Shops were probably more local - I know I'd have to walk quite a lot further than 2 miles to find a supermarket (the Somerfield in my village is a corner shop, not a supermarket).

Plus I think that there are more people now who just don't know how to cook as they've never been able to learn.

Well I suppose people now have the choice not to do those things, thanks to Iceland et al. Obviously it's not the healthier choice, but it is a lot easier. I am very lucky in that it's not a choice I have to make and I'm certainly not going to sit in my position of relative comfort and tell other women (because it always IS women) they should be making four trips to the shops a week with three kids in tow AND possibly working full time, when they could do it all for less money in Lidl.

The way we live and shop has changed, Piester. I don't know about your road, but I wish to God I had a butcher at the end of mine. Also, women today work and even if they wanted to walk to the butcher twice a week (it would be a four-mile round trip for me) the butcher would be closed by the time I got there.

fill carrier bags and slip them over your wrists leaving your hands to had a fair grip on the children and the bus fare.

Camberwell green (while not my destination of choice) is surprisingly blessed with cheap butchers, grocers and supermarkets (not one but 2 branches of Sommerfield).

As is Brixton. I was more thinking of the nearest butcher where I'd be willing to go ? There's a Co-op 10 minutes walk from my flat but I won't buy meat there. It's one thing that gets right up my nose actually - butchers, fishmongers et al whinge about being put out of business by the supermarkets but they're not willing to open at times that suit the working person (working woman for the most part). But that's another thread.

gaah - wasnt going to come back to this

but what are you saying? you can buy all the things you need to make proper meals in lidl, or aldi and i am sure iceland must sell things other than frozen lasagne

also - forgive me if i totally misunderstand - but how many of the people who we are saying are too poor to feed their families anything but pap are working full time?

the whole thing is just so fcuked up right from the very starting point that people think it is right and their right to have children they cannot afford and are not capable of caring for

One point that hasn't filtered through to the people buying stuff from Iceland etc. is that they are reducing portion sizes to maintain a price point. Ready meals in particular are getting this treatment and no-one seems to have noticed yet.

Are they in league with the NHS ?

? Careful now. That sound like something I might have said.

Note: For the purposes of this discussion, I am most definitely not saying anything of the sort (this time).

There currently isn't a law which says parents have to feed kids nutritious food. As long as the children are not starving, then they are being cared for.

Poverty is a big problem, and there are loads of children who are currently in poverty, and something needs to be done, but you are coming across as being very judgmental.

I haven't seen the JO programme so I may be totally misunderstanding the debate. I think the main problem is that more and more people see takeaways, choc bars etc as the treats and the rest of the food just fuel to keep you going. As a child and young adult, with a mum who never cooked anything, I existed on meals that I wouldn't feed to my animals these days. It took me a long time to come around to food being more than just something you shovel in while in front of the telly and maybe that is what needs to change. Here in my part of France they think nothing of spending hours preparing and eating a meal - because it is more than just about the food, it defines who they are and is a major part of family life. How do you do that as a single mum with limited time and money? - No idea I'm afraid. So is this JO programme just about teaching cooking skills to people with low budgets or is it tackling poor eating habits of various people? Editied to say grrr - why do all my posts keeping coming out in big blocks of text.....

Another couple of points that haven#t been discussed (not sure whether they are in the article as have not read it, sorry):

- a lot of people who are poor in wealth are also poor in time (doing two jobs plus childcare, say), which makes cooking from scratch less appealing (don't say "but I can make a stir fry in 5 minutes" as I know this is true- it's not a sufficient reason for people to eat crap but I think it is a factor, especially when combined with lack of cooking skills);

- shopping for lots of ingredients is a lot harder when you only have £10 in your purse, even if the cost should be less than this. Noone wants to be the person at the checkout who can't afford their shopping, and keeping track of your spending as you go round the shop is hard (esp as I imagine that poor maths ability and very low income often go together)- this is why Iceland started pricing everything at £1 or £2.

I think JO is trying to do something incredibly important and have huge amounts of respect for him. I also think that a lot of criticism levelled at him is rather patronising to those on low incomes, as if one can't have an opinion if one isn't in a council house oneself. However, a TV chef is going to struggle to win a battle that is more about profound historical social and educational issues than it is about cooking.

Yes, that would very much seem to be the bottom line.

My mum didn't cook. The only time we had veg when I was a kid was for Sunday lunch. She simply didn't have any money. My sister got a Saturday job to buy fruit. I confess that I was pretty clueless about cooking before I had my children. I didn't buy with a conscience; still don't sometimes. Sometimes we eat unhappy chicken. Never unhappy eggs though. I used to feed myself when I moved out of home mostly on toast and shop-bought pasta & carbonara.

The only shops within wlking distance of my house are a massive Asda and a Spar. I refuse to pay more to buy the same thing in Spar that I could buy in Asda. I started using a farm shop recently for eggs, milk & fruit & veg, but can only go on a weekend, because they shut at the same time I finish work. It's 15 mins drive away from my house. The butcher I go to is in the market in the town centre. It's a market hall with lots and lots of butchers. I daren't ask whether it's happy meat or not because I don't know where else to try if it isn't.

We eat fish fingers. And chips. And take out. Just not for every meal - who the hell can afford that? I work full time and I can't afford that.

I don't really know what in me (and my sister) made us both so determined that our children would have a better diet, but I do know that it can be done.

ETA: sorry, I was interrupted a bit writing that. I'm not too proud to admit that I have learnt a lot about economy cooking from Hitched, as well as my MIL (although she uses leftovers to the nth degree and it makes me feel a bit queasy) but I still get a bit lost about cheaper cuts of meat, proper use of herbs and anything to do with couscous is right out ?

(I haven't read the whole thread so apols if there is a tangent)

I live in an area of Liverpool with a high level of depravation. Within walking distance, we have about 8-10 fast food places, a farmfoods and a Lidl, that's it, even Kwik Save has closed down! I have to drive 5 miles or take 2 buses to get to a nearby village where I can go to a decent butcher and greengrocer. I'm committed enough to eating well and eating responsibly so I'm willing to do this but so, so many aren't. I can see why a frozen meal from farmfoods is prefrable to the masses. It makes me desperately sad when I see the state of this area and I'm thankful that I have the means and inclianation to get myself to buy decent food. I wish it was available to everyone.

I've always cooked, I cooked with my mum from a very young age and have since taught other people, including my mil and h to cook from scratch. If I have children, I will let them join in with cooking as soon as they are old enough as I would like them to have my passion for food. I also did home economics at school and being the cooking swat I was, I won the school prize for it. ? There should be cooking in schools from early primary years so it becomes second nature.

This is a really good point. Also if you're on weekly wages or benefits bulk buying/stocking up on relatively expensive ingredients that last a long time, like spices and seasonings, olive oil etc, would be much harder.

I do think though that at the very bottom end of the social scale, children are a hell of a lot better nourished than they were 100 years ago. My godmother grew up in a very very poor rural community in Ireland; for much of her childhood all she (and her 12 brothers and sisters) had to eat was potatoes. You don't see much of that in the UK now, than heavens.

Indeed.

G&T is only one generation away from having to go out and catch your protein, whether it be hooking wild river trout (nice), shooting rabbits (nice, but boney) or throwing stones at starlings (not nice). Mostly it was just bread and spuds.

I ate rubbish when I was poor. My boyfriend and I (get the violins out!) had ice on the inside of our windows because we couldn't afford to turn the heating on. These are 3 'meals' I can remember from 18 years ago, we had them so frequently:

• one small tin Heinz veg soup, and loads of slices of cheap white sliced bread (hopefully marked down)
• crisp sandwiches - usually branded 'nice crisps', for a treat, and made with bread as above
• tin of beans topped with instant potato - and when flush, a bit of cheese melted on top

Why didn't I use real potatoes to top my beans? Make up a fresh vegetable soup?

Bear in mind that intelligence or lack thereof shouldn't come into it - I was getting my A grade A levels at the time... I even grew up in a household where we had real potatoes and fresh veg - though usually marked down at the end of the day. My mother cooked - although badly! - and I had grown up baking with her sometimes.

In part, I think it was laziness - and I know that sounds odd, because mashing a potato isn't that hard. It was also just not thinking (also laziness) - but I think we just assumed that good food = expensive food - so we didn't even bother looking. Why be disappointed.

The other thing that I'm embarrassed to say, and you might scoff at... but you know what? Mashed potato from a powdered packet mix was a treat. We had come from a generation where 'instant' things were new and if not exciting, certainly, well - new! Buying a tin of soup instead of making it was actually in a small way an extravagance and a luxury. That's how it felt, and if we thought it was cheaper too...

I wasn't bothered about my health at 16 - because I thought I was healthy. Thin, clear skin, plenty of energy... I'm sure my innards would have said differently!

I think if you haven't been there, it can be hard to understand that what we look at as crap (Heinz tinned veg soup!) seems quite upmarket to some. I think there's an element of treat even about buying a ready meal lasagne for 2 quid, sometimes.

I can't connect with the person I was then, now - but I know that I wouldn't have thought 'this is unhealthy sh*t that I could make better and cheaper' - I'd have thought (subconsciously) - 'oooh, a ready meal, aren't I posh'. Or 'isn't it nice to treat myself'.

I'm lucky I can afford not to eat like that now, and lucky I have the knowledge to avoid it if my income slips back where it was.

The thing is my mum brought up my sister and I on benefits and walked over 2 miles to Aldi and back with the weeks shopping and we had good food and treats and free school dinners too.

There is the genuine poor who aren't as stupid as it's sometimes implied who do know how to look after themselves and could make money stretch further than I could in a million years and then there's the plain bone idiol, the two shouldn't be confused.

I honestly think that if you are going to be given income support for an indefinate time as many single mums are, then parenting and cookery/home economics should be compulsory. A few hours a week isn't much to ask of anyone. And if you don't like it then don't rely on the state.

Having said that Jools Oliver made a comment in Juinor magazine that Jamie had asked her to feed herself and their 2 children for a week on £60 and she couldn't do it.

Ouch! Police state anyone??

Availability and encouragement of classes, yes - but compulsory?

And what if I'm on income support because of recession and I've paid a fat lot of NI for the last 18 years? Can I opt out because actually, I'm relying on a state-run insurance scheme, not the state per se?

Oh, and can I opt out of the compulsory class if the food-nazis are satisfied with my meal plan and fridge contents?!

I'm all for education - formal and a softer educative approach - but I am not for compulsory cooking lessons for people on benefit!!!

And if it's all the fault of those pesky single mums, here's an idea... how about all absent fathers by law have to deliver an organic veg box to their child(ren) every week??

So all people on benefits should have compulsory parenting and cookery/home economics lessons should they? Even if they cook and parent just fine? What about all the shit cooks and bad parents that are not on benefits? Or is that ok because they're 'paying in'?

You've come on here and said a few stupid things lately, do think something through before spouting it, please.

Fathers for Juicetice ?

You can teach anyone, almost, anything. A pencil must be lead.

Well she hardly strikes me as teh brightest candle in the box.

Our childrens centre runs some fantastic (non compulsory courses) in parenting skills and cookery skills. It takes more than the classes though and I'm really not convinced that you can change the mindset of some. I certainly wouldn't of dreamed of cooking from scratch before Hitched and I wouldn't of believed it could be a cheaper way of eating.