those of you who have had your professional photos!

I'm a Photographer's OH. And no this is not the norm. Most photographers give proofs in one shape or another - either as prints (sometimes watermarked), in a book, on a disc or in a web gallery. Personally I have never heard of the photographer choosing the entire photos for the entire album. Depending on the style of the album, sometimes the photographer does pick a certain number of shots but usually only after consulting with the bride and groom about what they want.

What does your contract say? Does it mention proofs? Does it say that the photographer will just give you the final album? What did the photographer say when you met with him/her initially about proofs and selecting photos for the album?

If your contract doesn't clear it up I would write to your photographer saying you aren't entirely happy with the album and that you would like to see copies of all your proofs to make a selection for your album. Are they a member of one of the professional organisations (MPA/SWPP/BIPP/BPPA etc.)?

I have to say I'm a little suspeicious about this because one of the ways photographers often make money is by selling prints to family members. If family members only get to see your album and not the proofs then that really limits the amount of photos they will see and so is likely to limit the reprint order your photographer will get. Maybe I'm overly suspicious but maybe the photos in your album may be the only ones that turned out. Hopefully I am being over-suspicious.

You have to look back and see what you have agreed with your photographer, check your contract, but it is not the norm. We would never present an album without receiving final approval from the bride. We are sometimes asked to put together a complete album and make selections/recommendations ourselves, but we would always present this to the couple before going to print. In additiona we always put everything up on a custom website for them to view and we also sometimes produce pritned proofs, although this is becoming more rare as most people are happy to view things online.

www.pixcellence.co.uk

I think all photographers are different, I know some who retain full control on selecting images for the album whilst some allow the couple to choose.

As others have said, check your contract and see what is in it.

We put all of our images in an online gallery for couples to view, they can then select 120 images that they would like in their album. I then design the album based on this (I also ask them to tell me which ones of the 120 are an absolute essential). I then send a proof of the album for them to look at and approve before sending away.

The reason some photographers retain control is time. Digital albums take a lot of time to create, and there are a million possibilities for page designs. You could end up going back and forth dozens of times to choose the images, therefore a lot of photographers have limits.

At the end of the day, we want couples to be happy with their album and therefore try and give them choice, whilst retaining some creativity ourselves. Afterall we would hope that couples chose us because they like our albums & work and trust us to showcase their images.

TG

Whilst this isn't the norm it isn't unheard of. I know of at least 2 high end photographers who retain full control over what photos the couple see - the couple only get the see the photos that make the final album, they can request to remove any they really don't like but won't get replacements (though in these cases the final album usually contains between 150-200 photos).

As mentioned, particularly with digital albums, design can be very complicated when trying to work all requested images in. The way we work is to show a gallery of 300+ images from which we doe an initial design without the couples input. However, we then show this to the couple who can make any changes they want before it goes to print.

As already mentioned you need to look at your contract and see what it says. It might just be that this is the way they work. If you want to show copies to friends and family the best thing would be to ask the photographer to put them in an online gallery or maybe put watermarked images on a disc for you. He may be happy to product printed proofs for you but will probably charge extra for this if it was not included in the original contract because it will cost him more to get the prints.

HTH, Beccy

We went to see our proofs last night. We have come away with a print out of them for choosing the images we want for the album and also order forms for other people if they want albums/prints. The photographer retains copyright so no CD's of them or anything but we were awaer of that from the start. Our photographer also said if we want we can go and choose the layout of the full album with her too or she will do it on her own.

I think it how she works was explained to us when we went to meet her the first time though it didn't say any of it in the contract itself, so not sure how helpful your contract would be in this instance. I feel for you though, there are several pics in my proofs that won't make it into the final cut but that's our decision not the photographers.

I hope you get it sorted.

As mentioned above, for some photographers this is the norm, although it is very much in the minority. I know of a couple of high end photographers that were doing this as far back as the 1980s. In their cases though, they had the finished album ready for the couples return from honeymoon.

Check your contract for the detail.

Peter

As has been said already, there are some very well known, and established photographers who have total control over the album, but the clients are fully aware of this when they hire them. Also the quality of the work they do is stellar.

If the album that has been provided has poor images in it, like eyes half closed, etc, then I would address it with the photographer, check your contract to see what the deal was regarding proofing, your imput into the album, etc. He may have created an album of all the images that he felt came out. It's impossible to second guess.

Regarding albums, they can be veryt time consuming when done in the manner to tell the story of the day. It can be very difficult to design an album where the client picks all the images for it, because there needs to be a flow to the storytelling. It can actually drag on much longer than if the photographer does a predesign to tell the story of the day, and their sugggested pick of images, but even those that do that, still encourage the client's imput on the final album that is created.

That's the method we have adopted after it took nearly a year for a few couples in the past to decide on images for their album. It is a relief for the couple to only have to be involved in the 'tweaking' stage, and they can still add images they want included, as well as have any removed they don't wish to be included. Every one is happy. But the only way to do this, is with a proof gallery, which will have the images for them to look thru. Final tweaks on the images happen after the album selection is made.

That said, I can't imagine just desigining an album without cilent imput. I have a hard enough time selecting the images for the proofing gallery, lol.

I think thats really strange, I would be very upset if our photographer just went ahead and picked our photos and put an album together. I would deffinitely get intouch with the photographer (not his wife) and ask wether he thinks its acceptable to go ahead without consulting you first! Also ask him what he was thinking when he used photos where your eyes are half shut?!

Surely if he gave you both a pile of proofs to sort through, it would make his life a hell of a lot easier?

I thought I was the only one with a photographer with strange methods......we got married in Cyprus in April and we had to choose our images....on the day!!! (Our photographer was from the UK) Me and H had to sit in front of a laptop and choose 50 photos out of 700!!! We whittled it down to 200 and then told him our eyes where nearly bleeding!! But at least we got to choose....

Good luck and let us know how you get on x

Thanks for your replys!

He is a member of swpp
I havent checked our contract as my mum has all the bits and bobs for wedding things but if i remember rightly i dont think it said anything about proofs..nor did it say the finished album would be his choice either....i think it just said what package we wanted,which was basically how many photos we would be getting.

To be honest i wouldnt have minded him choosing our final photos had they all have been good photos but the ones of me with my eyes half shut are quite embarresing...not to mention worrying about the state of our album once it has done the rounds!!

we also noticed that 2 photos in the album are smaller than the rest, they are of our daughter doing her posing,they are very cute but you can see they have been cut with scIssors to get them to that size as the edges are not straight....not very proffesional!!

Sometimes prints might be of a different size. Digital formats are on a ratio of 2:3. This is great for some things although the older style 5:4 often gives a better shape for single shots of people.

The completed album concept has one bonus for the photographers that do this style....no waiting months for clients to choose what they want and then giving an order in November and wanting it for xmas. They can deliver an end product very quickly.

That said, its not my way.......

what i meant by this was that where some had been scissor cut,they have wonky edges therefore not loOKIng very professional.

The photgrapher was meant to call my mum back but didnt!,i thinK i may send a letter.....i realise now that this may be how he does things and i guess its my fault for not checking to begin with but i dont tHink its an excuse to have photos of me with half shut eyes!!

thanks for all your replys!

Ah no.....that isn't too good.

As mentioned above, if you get no joy from him, take the case to the SWPP. You say that he is a member there. Is he a qualified member (LSWPP, ASWPP or FSWPP) or simply an associate member.

It says he is
a member of the society of wedding and potrait photographers

it just says that at the bottom of the paper!

what is the difference?
thanks

There are 4 types of membership. The basic one anyone can join. The main ones are progressively, Licentiate. Associate and Fellow of the SWPP. The progression usually shows that there is a degree of dedication to the craft and the industry combined with the photographers ability.

That said, there are many really good photographers who decide not to go down any association route.

The question about your photographer is that if he is an affilliate, there is no great support from the SWPP to defend your case(sorry).

If you want to PM me his url, I will happily check it out for you(Those that know me on here will testify that I am not asking for this for any subversive purpose or self gain)

Partly yes, partly no.

On the calling bit following the death in his family. Yes, probably be unreasonable, can you imagine the scene, police leave his home after telling him his wife/parents/kids/brother has died....'Oh I really must contact all of my clients and tell them I'm about to fall apart'. I can be honest and say I wouldn't, I'd just crumple into a ball.

On the album, lots of photographers do give previews first, lots dont. Personally I do and I think it's just plain weird that some photographers dont' as the ones I choose are very seldom the ones the couple do. You need to check your paperwork to see what was agreed.

Of course i didnt expect him tO call me straight away!
But this happened the week after our wedding and 6wks down the line he hadnt called us,i dont think its unreasonable to have him call us by the 6Th week of waiting for them
This isnt really the issue though,the issue is that im unhappy with my final album and the more i look at them the more upset im getting

If you are unhappy with your album the best thing to do is contact him, he may be more than happy to sort it out for you but is unaware of how you feel.

If it was me I'd contact the photographer and voice my disapointment before I did anything else.

I shall be contacting him to let him know how i feel,although he does know as my mum spoke to his wife about the matter and he was meant to be calling back but didnt!.

I shall be writing him a letter stating how i feel about the final album.

Mil noticed over the weekend when she was looking through the album that one of them had been wrote over....not actually on the photo but obviously the photo was underneath the paper which someone had wrote on....not sure what it says but there is a deffinate W on the photo,which i do not feel is acceptable!

My mum managed to speak to tHe photographer and he was most unhelpful!

He said that he explained that there would be no proofs but he most certainly did not!,nor did he say that he would be choosing the final album.

This is my fault i guess for not asking correct questions!

I just assumed i guess that there would be proofs,this doesnt explain though why the photos are not of good quality,why poor ones have been included in the final album,why certain ones have wonky edges as they have been scissor cut and why one of them has a big W marked due to obviously been lent on whilst writing!.

He just didnt want to know that i was unhappy and made it sound to my mum that i had told him a budget to work to which was not the case!....i simply asked what his package prices were and took the one with less photos as we were only having a small wedding so i didnt think we warrented lots of photos!,i certainly did not think that the quality of the photos would be less than the more expensive packages!.

After looking at my bils wedding album,its plain to see how unproffesional ours look, the album and how they have been stuck in and to be honest im totally embaressed about them!.

I will try and upload a photo of the album so you can see how cheap looking it is....its basically just like a normal white album with cheap tracing paper in between the pages and the photos pritt sticked in,i assumed a wedding album would be much nicer..baring in mind this isnt the one we chose,he said he chose this one as the photos would stand out better!?

I dont think people should give him any more money for reprints!,this is why i shall be calling him to ask for his permission to let another photographer correct his unproffesional work or for him to reprint my album for free so i can find a nicer album to put the photos in,if he doesnt give me permission to let another photographer do reprints then i shall be speaking to someone as to how to take this further!.

Everytime i think about it i want to cry,these are meant to be photos im proud to show off but im so embarresed to show them to people!.

OMG, you poor thing! How awful that he's ruined your memories of your special day by such shoddy workmanship. Blinking eyes is such a no no too. You're the bride - your images should be perfect!

I'm a photographer myself and a bit of a perfectionist! I always hate to put the taking of photos in someone elses hands - think it'll take me ages to find a wedding photographer! I think it'd be too hard taking my own photos

I suppose he's not worried about you now as he has your money and thinks you won't take it further as most people don't - I think you should take it further and prove him wrong.

I'm sorry to hear he had a death in the family, but when you're in business you have to always have a business mind and think of your customers, even if it's just a quick phone call or email - he can even get someone to call round for him if he gave them a list of customers.

I really hope you get it sorted xx

Thank you for your reply!!

Im not quite sure how i could take it further if i am to threaten him with it...any ideas?

someone has suggested threatening him with taking it to the papers but i would rather go about it properly!

Some brides get a professional photographer to review the album/photos and write a detailed report. (a fellow photographer I know had to do this for a bride and groom, as the pictures were horrendous)

Then you will probalby have to see a solicitor. Sometimes just a letter from a solicitor saying something like: the work has been reviewed by the solicitiors and you have had a professional examine it and it has been deemed unacceptable. and that you want the problems rectified.

Does he have any pictures/albums on his website that you could compare yours too? - as if the pictures are not as good as the advertised pictures then you could have a case there too.

Have you found your contract? as it would be interesting to see what he's put in that.

Things like this are tricky, but the album sounds completely below par, so I think you should have a good case. Do you have a local solicitors that you could have a chat over the phone to?

He doesnt have a website.

The contract doesnt say alot to be honest!,not even sure if it is classes as a contract!....it just says how many photos and what album they will go in and the date....i think thats about it really...my mum has it so i dont have it hear to read at the moment but from what i can remember it doesnt say alot else!.....the album is different from the one we origionally chose which is on the " contract" for a start so it just shows how unprofessional he is as he didnt even inform us!

Thanks for your help!

So, so, sorry to hear about your terrible time with your photographer. I've not much to add really as the other photographers here seem to have said it all so well. I feel bad for your photographer too, my Mum died while I was actually at a wedding and I had to leave immediately. The couple were VERY understanding and I provided them with all the images I had already took, plus the album and all the images on CD and also refunded all their money, I did this during the first week after their wedding. I simply couldn't have left it any longer. Your photographer may have felt differently to me however, but I feel a certain amount of time has now passed and he should be addressing some of his business needs at least.

Photos that are simply stuck in the middle of a page never, in my opinion, look very professional, I use mats or overlays and the effect is much more pro-looking. The scissor-thing is simply unacceptable. It sounds to me like you were initially misled about the types of albums he provided. Eyes being shut are again a hazard professional (wedding) photographers deal with on a daily basis, we have many, many ways of getting round this both on the day and after in post-production. He sounds severly lacking in my opinion. I don't mean to sound harsh as he's obviously had a tough time but you paid for a professional service and you should have received it.

Good luck with your follow-ups, I know if I had an unhappy customer I'd go all out to make things up to them. This is what makes some photographers successful and some destined only for a bashing on forums.

Nicola

x

No-one can understand why he has included ones of me with my eyes half shut....why on earth would anyone want to show people a photo like that in their wedding album,i feel this is one album that should be perfect....i dont like having my photo taken and i hardly ever like how i look on them but i did expect my eyes to be fully open and not to look like id been sipping 5 bottles of champers before the ceremony!!

Perhaps he needs new glasses?

Is your photographer a member of any professional body - SWPP, BIPP, MPA? If so you could ask them to get involved and look at the album.

I recall that he was a member of the SWPP although not if he was a qualified member or an affiliate.

Hi Destiny,

Really sorry to hear about your pics, me and my fiance run a wedding photography business and it eally makes my blood boil when I hear about shoddy photographers, especially for a wedding. Are the pics digital? If so, i'd be happy to have a look at them and give you some recommendations about what you can do.

Laura

Hang on, you didn't even choose the album either? I'm not going to criticise another photographers working practices but that is very unusual to not only have the images chosen for you, but the album too!

I do think you have some grounds to complain, the problem you are going to face is you have no 'specifications' of what was going to be provided, those that you do, e.g number of photographs etc have, at least, quantifiably, been fulfilled.

I definitely think you can complain about the 'W' and the wonky/rough scissor cuts as these are errors that are not open to artistic interpretation, they are just bad workmanship. The photographs and the actual album is harder, as he can reasonably be expected to have 'artistic license' in the absence of a specification.

A 'wedding album' is quite simply a photo album with wedding pictures in, it can be top of the range, or it can be a simple stick in job from boots (not that I'd use one of them!). It really is a how long is a piece of string sort of situation.

In a way you have to take some responsibility for not being happy with your actual album (photo's and 'W' aside) because you presumably you didn't ask to see what you were actually getting before you booked. Their are just way too many cowboys around and in an unregulated industry like photography anybody can call themselves a professional. You could say you are if you wanted to. However, I don't think you should take full responsibility as this guys practices and product are not clearly documented which could easily lead to misunderstanding and communication breakdown.

I don't think you have received a particularly good service either.

To put things in perspective, I once had a couple complain that the album they received wasn't what they thought they were getting. On their contract I have a massive table detailing everything about the package they have ordered going so far as to specify the size of the album, the material it's made from, the printing technology, number of pages etc and they very clearly ticked the album I provided them with. The one they got was a square leather one, the one they thought they were getting was 35cm x 25cm with an Acrylic cover so it's not even as though they could reasonably be mixed up if they had bothered to read the contract properly. Even though I think I'd clearly specified the product and that they clearly simply ordered the wrong album, I still offered to provide them with the album they wanted providing they covered the difference between the package prices and the cost of printing the cheaper album.

Can you PM me with your photographers details? I'd like to see if I can find anything out for you.

Just spotted that. This might be your main point in any form of redress. Check with your CAB, I'm sure there will be something about substituting a product.

Unfortunately i dont have them on disc only in the album,shame as it would be great to get an opinion!

thanks anyway

DEBBIE