WWYD? marriage related rant

I'd give yourself a while to calm down about it simply because it's something new you've found out about - but not something new that he's done, if you get my meaning. Don't do anything until you've calmed down. TBH - think about the fact that it's a 9 year old debt, not a 9 week old debt.

? You sound absolutely desperate.

You\re not alone - a number of other people on here have gone through similar things and I am sure will be able to provide excellent advice/contacts/resources/whatever.

One thing I will say though, is it sounds to me as if you're being a bit unfair. If my boss said to me: "Sophie, come to work late again and you're fired" and the next day I came to work on time and he said: "I've just found out about a time you were late in 2001 that I didn't know about until now, so you're fired", I'd be off to an employment lawyer pdq ?

I know it isn't the same, but I think you need to separate your shock and anger at finding out about this old transgression from the bigger picture, and make a decision independently of it.

First of all, the debt from 9 years ago will be statute-barred - whatever you do, don't make any payment or acknowledge the debt.

The telephone competition lines is worrying - could it be a gambling.spending addiction do you think? If so professional help seems to be the way to go. I can definitely understand you feeling betrayed. I would insist on him seeking help if it is a genuine psychological problem and he isn't just spending money to get unnecessary things for himself. If the latter is the case, that's a whole different kettle of fish really. I would insist on separate finances but if you own a place together that's practically impossible.

Ditto what Campergril said. Also I think I remember reading that they can't chase you for a debt older than 6 years. Someone here may be able to confirm this.

On a practical note why do you still let him use credit cards? I would make my H cut them up in front of me (or take them off him and cut them up myself)

Hmm, I'd say your sounds like he has a genuine problem - canyou find some debt counselling?

Also, I'd look into whether your H actually has to pay back the money on this old debt because there's a time period after which if they haven't asked you for the repayment you can avoid paying it. I think they debt boards on the moneysavingexpert sites are good for this.

Also, I'm presuming this debt is your H's - check because debt collection agencies write to everyone with the same name or have lived in that property and so on, looking for anyone to pay off the debt....

Thanks everyone.

Yes, I feel betrayed. I feel so hurt by this, and I realise that it's slightly over-reacting of me, but I don't know how else to react. I'm so tired of constantly being skint, because we've had to pay off so many debts in our time. In fact, now that we're in the house I have to shop around for the cheapest, but still hopefully NICE, piece of furniture, rather than being able to go "ok right, we'll save up a month, and then get it" or whatever. Because I honestly don't think there'll be any money next month.

I don't still give him the credit cards, all the accounts are now closed, bar Argos (which I'm paying off, and I've got the one remaining store card for (the other one was chopped up). It's just the fact that he refuses to see things my way, and doesn't actually realise that all the clothes I have for work are about 2 years old, everything is tatty and worn, and I have to justify every single expenditure I do on myself, whereas he moans/nags/annoys me until I bend and say "Fine, you can buy this" etc.

I just feel like I'm at the end of my tether; our wedding is tainted because we couldn't even afford to buy our own wedding rings (and that was the one and only purchase we had to do ourselves!) but in the meantime he was still adamant that he should be allowed to buy all the videogames he wanted from time to time, etc. It wasn't as simple as going "these 10 games have just come out now, so I'm going to buy them all!" but more in the sense of "oh can I have a £10 for this game if I swap x and y" in game and gamestation etc. And then he'd still be expecting to go out drinking with his friends at the weekend. He thinks his life is tough now, that he's only been out TWICE this month. Well, that's twice more than me!

Sorry, I know I should be telling HIM this rather than you, but at the moment I'm just so angry I'm trying to place all my feelings in the right slots, so I don't just blow up at him when/if I see/speak to him..

I am going to ask him to look into the debt for himself; I'm not going to jump through any more bloody hoops, as I would normally be the one going on MSE's website now, asking the forum there... And I don't want to do that, because if I then find out the right information, and a DIFFERENT version of the truth comes out, such as "well actually, the debt isn't THAT old..." then I'll lose it.

xxx

I can see why you're at 'the straw that broke the camel's back' point, however, like others say, this is not a recent debt. Realistically nothing has changed between not having this letter, and having it, except that you know he's possibly had this problem a long time.

I think you need to step back from this precise letter, and look at whether you can put up with theover all situation. Do you trust that he is now not spending? Is he getting help (I would personally find it hard to believe the first without the second). Do you have the energy to help him through it?

L
xx

From your more recent post, he needs a reality check. Why are you giving in to him? You are in a way helping create a build up of resentment, because you are making all the sacrifices here, it would seem. You really, realy need to stop trying to make him happy and get him to understand the situation.

L
xx

From your latest post it sounds as if your H needs to learn that the money just isn't there for him to buy games etc, no matter how much he nags etc. It sounds like he would benefit from counselling over this and perhaps it would help you too. I know you must bend because you want him to stop nagging or whatever, but that's not helping to address the root cause. It may also be helpful if you sought some help over this too, because it really sounds like you need to talk it out with someone.

On a practical note, is there any way you could agree that he gets £x to spend on games, drinking etc and once it's gone, it's gone - there's no more for him? Clearly you'd need to give it to him in cash and then be firm about not giving him any more.

The latest letter is to me less of an issue, being an older debt, but it sounds like there are still underlying issues and resentment from both of you that need to be worked through.

Lois- good point.

He's getting help, goes to psychotherapy 2x a month, which is, funnily enough, all that we can afford.

I don't know why I keep giving in to him. I guess it's partly because of the way he puts it; I had a pretty financially stable background etc, and he didn't. So, in a way, he's used that as blackmail against me over the years, and made me believe that I should pity him.

Now that I'm in this rut, I can't see a way out. Our money can only stretch so far, and if it turns out, worst case scenario, that this is a debt he does have to pay off, it means paying it off for the next year or so. I'd only just got round to the idea of thinking that in about 10 months time, we'd be debt free (except the mortgage of course).

I see now that throughout our relationship he has just been so manipulative. Not in a nasty way, necessarily, but in a way that would make me feel sorry for him, and try to help him...

It sounds like you're at the end of your tether with him and the situation you are in and and you are using this letter as an excuse to be mad and fed up with him. Try to look past the letter as it is not reasonable to have a go at him about a debt that long ago before you were together. It is reasonable, however, to be fed up about your situation and want him to take some responsibilty for it.

I would give him the letter and tell him the advice you've had on here and tell him to look into and sort it out. Try not to have a go at him about finances at the same time, try and separate the two and approach him at a separate time to discuss other matters.

That's what I'm thinking as well, as that would hopefully try and solve some of the issues. But even then, I don't think he'd stop at that, because if we set up a budget, say, of £20 a week that we could do with as we pleased, that'd be fine and dandy, until he would realise that at the end of each week I'd still have money left over, and he wouldn't. Again, it'd be unfair, he would want x, y, z, and get himself into a mess, e.g. go out for a drink with a mate, and miss the last bus home, and then not have any cash to get a taxi with. Obviously, I'd love to think that I'd sit there and go "OK well use your legs and WALK!" but realistically I know I wouldn't.

I'm already in therapy 2x a week for something else, and H has come up in conversations in the past, and the therapist has just shaken her head and told me I need to sort it out. But I also need to grow a back bone, which I can't seem to do.

xxx

Is it worth trying to get some counselling for the two of you? Or actually have you had some advice yourself on how to deal with someone who is addicted to spending? Because I think you need some help yourself on coping with the situation, and also to get some perspective on your H's behaviour.

There is no reason whatsoever that YOU should feel any kind of guilt about HIS past, his upbringing, whatsoever. You need to not feel sorry for him. He is an adult, and he sounds like he is perfectly capable of feeling sorry enough for himself

L
xx

OK so am I completely unreasonable in my thinking that I don't want to be involved in this old debt, that has suddenly come to light? Because if it happens that it can't be written off, I know I'll be the one looking after getting it paid...

I'm going to try and talk t him tonight, but atm I'm still at that place where I think- whats the point in trying? He'll only do it again...

It isn't a question of growing a back bone, you need some support and someone to say 'actually, you aren't helping him until you make him stand on his own two feet'. You need expert advice.

L
xx

He sounds as if he's being really childish and selfish about this, and definitely needs a reality check. Why should you be subsidising his drinking and video games? The point about the different backgrounds is worrying really, it sounds like some kind of resentment building up that is somehow misdirected at you. That can be very damaging. I wonder if Relate might be helpful for you? Especially if money is tight, the sessions are means-tested.

I would also sit down and make a budget - maybe you've done this already, but it's clear he's no sticking to it and if so I'd want to know why. Take out your fixed costs and other essentials and divide the rest in half for his and your spending money (maybe there's some way of only giving him access to this much)?

To be honest, I'd question the value that either of you are getting out of your current therapists, since it doesn't seem to be helping your H and your therapist doesn't seem to be offering you much valuable input on this issue. Is there any possibility of changing counsellors or getting couples counselling (say from Relate)?

I would highly recommend this book, I found it life changing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Women-Who-Love-Too-Much/dp/0099482304

Give yourself time, give him a chance, read the book and think it through and see how you feel in a month or so. You always have a choice.

I think Relate will have to be the answer; we've been there before, so hopefully we can see the same woman again.

Part of me actually wonders if I'll ever love him again, and feel good about myself again. I mean, he has, in effect, misdirected resentment at me in the past, so he's broken me down in more ways as well. F*ck it, I just want out. I'm 26 this year, and there's no way in hell that I want to spend another 2 lifetimes (so far) with the same man.

I'm going to suggest to him when I that we need to go to Relate and so I can get it out in the open without exploding at him..

xxx

It's reasonable for you not to want to be involved in this debt. Give it to him and tell him to sort it out, it's nothing to do with you. I'm fairly sure you won't have to pay it as it's so old but let him look into it and deal with it.

It's hard but you need to be firm with him. He sounds like a child.

If you feel that strongly, you definitely need to get those views out there.

If you are genuinely getting ground down, things can only improve

L
xx

Clairy, thanks for that. I'll get it tonight ?

emma numbers- thing is, even if it won't become my debt, in a way it will... He can't be trusted to get bills paid on time, so even if he got a payment plan through of say, £50 a month or so, coming out on the 28th of each month, and I would transfer £50 across to his own account on the 27th, the direct debit would STILL bounce. The last bill he had to take care of was Argos, as the DD came out of his account. DD was £40, I put across £100 to cover that and two other utility bills, and also so he could have some spending money.. Well, two days after the Argos money was due to come out, I had a missed call from them. I asked H to check his bank balance, and surprise surprise, his balance was pretty much £0. Did he have an explanation? Nope. Every answer to my questions as to where the money had gone was "I dunno".

xxx

Thanks Lois, you're right.

In fact, you're all right ladies.

I'm going to arrange an appt at Relate again, and we managed to go for a pretty cheap price before so here's to hoping we can get the same deal again.

Sorry I ranted at you all ? I knew I needed a second opinion (or a few more!!) to make me realise what it actually is I'm feeling...

xxx

This letter aside as I really don't think you'll have to pay it. Here's a thread on moneysupermarket about it https://www.moneysupermarket.com/money-made-easy/forums/

I wouldn't be happy to accept ' I dunno' as answer from him. Does he offer to sort things out and you choose to do it or does he leave it all to you? Are these bills in his name or joint? If they are his then why do you sort them out? It sounds like it suits him to have you deal with it all as he just spends whatever he can get and then he doesn't have to worry because he knows you'll do it all. How dare he do that to you.

Thanks for the link, will take a peek now.

As for the payments- in the past, before I started to take care of everything, he would tell me that we couldn't afford to pay x bill this month, or y bill. I'd try and tell him we'd have to do something about it, and he would say that it doesn't really matter, we'll pay double next month. And so on. Sometimes he'd go as far as taking one of his games consoles into a shop and selling them for cash, but he'd get about half the money back what he spent on them, if that! And then, a few months down the line, he'd be nagging at me again to get another console, saying that he made the biggest mistake ever getting rid of the console, that he should've got rid of the other one, etc etc. And it's my own doing, because I would then say to him "well why don't we see if we can get another one this month, then?" just to keep the peace, actually.

The cards mentioned in the OP were ones that I took out in the time that we were together to begin with. I didn't want to NOT pay bills, or NOT afford xmas or whatever, so I'd take them out. But H would get access to them and spend on them as well. Get a coffee here, a coffee there... A game here, a game there... etc

xxx

I think you can get calls to certain types of numbers banned on your phone. Would this help? Have you thought about asking gamblers anonymous for advice as he is doing competitions?

I think you know that you need to be firm and not give in. Every time you give in you are condoning his behaviour. He created this situation and if he doesn't like it it's tough sh!t frankly.

I certainly wouldn't let him buy another console/games. Let him save up and buy them. Again if he can't save up his spending money then tough.

Tanta- thanks for that idea; before we moved house in the beginning of the month I had it set up to our phone line, but as we've now changed numbers I need to set it up again.. Thanks for the advice ?

emma numbers - I know I need to stand firm, I'm going to have to really be so strong about this, and not give in at any point. I can see now how it would just grow and grow until I explode- like this!

He's come home now, came home early from work, and has told me he wants to talk thing through. I told him he should stay at a friend's or at his sister's or something, but we've come to the agreement that he's not to sleep in our bedroom, in our bed, with me. He's the one in the wrong, so I'm going to make him realise how much I've actually had to give up, and make him do the same ?

Thanks all, you're a great bunch for support!

xxx

Your description of your relationship reads like something you'd normally expect between a mum and an unreasonable teenager rather than husband and wife.

He needs to take responsiblity for his own spending, he'll never change while you (however unwillingly) support him in spending money you don't have.

I'm hope you don't mind me replying (normally on BT) but having read your posts I can relate to so much of what you have said. My friend has also unfortunately just gone through something similar with her ex.

With my ex the issue was with money was just the desire to have more than he could afford and live a life he "deserved". When we moved in together we had to follow a tight budget to make ends meet and so he would have £X amount of money to spend on living after bills were paid. The reality unfortunately was that he was paid weekly and would spend it all at the weekend on going out/new games etc and would not have any money left to get the train to work. I "had" to give him money or else I was stopping him getting to work. I used to discover he had taken money out of our billing accounts and direct debits would go into our overdraft, for which we would be charged etc. The list could go on. I felt like his nagging mother always catching him out rather than than an equal partner in a relationship. In a way if he had an addiction to gambling or alcohol it would have been easier to fathom out but he just wanted to live a life outwith our means. I tried for 6 years to make him stick to a budget, but I don't think he saw the problem, so in that respect it was never going to work.

Unfortunately my friend's ex was addicted to gambling and used all manner of bizzare excuses to cover his excessive spending and secret loans/credit cards.

I agree with the others that if the letter relates to a 9 year old debt that you should not "punish" him for that now, but I understand why yet more evidence of bad debt may upset you. I am probably biased because of recent experiences but my first thought is that the debt may not be 9 years old and he has just said as a defence mechanism when questioned. I am sorry if this sounds harsh and I obviously do not know this to be fact, it is only my initial opinion.

He can only change his spending habits if he wants to. If he does not want to (i.e. take action himself without you having to nag) the only way I believe you can function in a relationship is completely separate your expenditure and let him get on with it.

Apologies if this is the first thing you tried but I just wonder, have you sat down with him and shown him how the bills add up and why your budget is therefore so tight and why you simply don't have money spare to spend on games and drinking etc etc? As has been mentioned, it sounds horribly like a mother/son relationship moneywise and not at all like a partnership and I just wondered whether he's been shown why there's no spare money or whether it's always just you telling him you can't afford things and then sometimes giving in due to the nagging and somehow he thinks since you give in sometimes that when you say no you're only doing it to be mean, not because you really can't afford it.

Obviously if you've tried this and he just chooses to ignore it and bury his head in the sand doing it again is unlikely to help, and frankly I'd walk away and leave him to screw up his own life and stop bringing you down, but that's just me.

?

DarcyL, you hit the nail on the head several times there, really. It's not been a case of WANTING to give him more money, but because he's got himself stuck into a rut so I've had to pay for his train fare into work, etc..

I've made it clear to him that I am not going to "punish" him for the 9 year old debt, but even when he got home this afternoon and I asked him what he was going to do about it, he looked like a rabbit in headlights! He hadn't even thought about asking people on HIS forums he frequent (all videogame related, of course!!) or any of his friends. He's too much of a "let's bury our heads in the sand and pretend as if nothing's wrong", and the fact that this came up proved to me that even 10 years ago he did it, and hadn't even considered changing in those 10 years. It's actually taken ME to make him realise that what he's been doing his whole life is wrong. Sad, really.. I've also come to realise that part of the reason his ex broke up with him (mother to his son and stepdaughter) was because of, you guessed it!, money. He STILL wanted to have his standard of living maintained, even if his salary had to pay for 2 kids and 2 adults, and all their needs. Something has to give, and her patience did, in the end.

Morrigan - thanks for the post. I have a Finances Spreadsheet on our laptop at home where I monitor all the ingoing and outgoing. All the essentials like house bills, then a food allowance of x amount, then maintenance for the aforementioned kids, which leaves y each month to do with as we please.

The ironic thing is that this time last year H was in a better paid job, but we still had less money each month to spend, even if we had less debts?? But then, he was in charge of the money...

I've told him tonight that I'm going to, amongst other things, divvy up the remaining cash remaining in three chunks - one to go into the House Allowance Pot, one for me, and one for him. I'll take equal chunks out of our own money out at the beginning of each week, so we have the cash, physically, in our hands. That way, if he's running low on cash, he knows it. And I'll have some spare cash to do with what I please! *touches wood!* ?

Thanks again all xxx