WWYHD? AIBU?

Why don't you suggest meeting up sans children, see how you get on. That way, you'll know whether there is a friendship there before making any rash decisions.

Well, she sounds like quite a normal bouncy 4 year old tbh, but have to say I DO pick mine up on saying please and thankyou when they forget (well mine are now 5 and only 2.5, but the same applies). I agree with the above post - it's HIM you were friends with, so maybe organise seeing him on his own and see if you still feel a connection that you want to build on. Or just be friends via Facebook or similar where you can exchange pleasantries and keep in touch but without actually having to sit and spend hours talking? (and obviously his daughter not involved).

Well, he should absolutely be picking her up on her manners and asking her to say please and thank you. But....a 4 year old interrupting, wanted to be pushed higher on the swings and desperate for sweets you've bought her? All normal if you ask me.

She's little more than a toddler, you're being very harsh.

A lot of what you say sounds like a normal 4 year old's behaviour.

My nearly 3 year is generally very good but has off days. I'd hate to be judged by an old friend on one meeting...

Having re-read your post, I'm laughing at you being put out that a 4 year old chose the biggest lollypop. Who knew? ?

I swear some people think they were never children.

I don't think I'm being unduly harsh. I have kids of my own and spend time regularly with plenty of children and this one was streets ahead of any others I know in terms of lack of manners, culminating in footstamping and tantrumming when they left us after we walked back to my house (where they'd parked) and I said goodbye at the door, she was adamant she wanted to come in and he wasn't picking up on any of the subtle hints I was trying to drop that I had to get on with things. When he finally said that no, they were leaving, there was an epic tantrum which I frankly goggled at (as did several passers-by and 2 neighbours)

I guess I can't really convey just how intrusive her behaviour was, as she demanded whatever she wanted (and got) from her father. And I can assure you if either of my 2 at that age had had sweets bought for them and tore them out of someone's hands as they were paying for them, they would have got very short shrift from me!

Maybe the problem I have is not with the little girl and I absolutely appreciate children are not born with poor manners, they are learned, but that I should be directing my hesitancy to him?

You're all right, a catch up with no small kids around is in order...

What happened was I'd picked up a lollypop and said "would you like this?" to which she then said, "I want THAT one" and grabbed the largest one on the stand. Sorry, but even at four, that's Verucca Salt behaviour to me and not something I'd want to witness again in a hurry... you must be a hell of a lot more tolerant than me ?

But you didn't say that initially did you? Just that she'd picked the largest one.

I'm unsure as to why you asked if you were being unreasonable when you clearly don't feel you are. We can only go on the information you post, we are not mind readers.

Yeah but I also asked what would you have done, which noone has actually said! I must be being unreasonable, by simple fact that I didn't say anything at the time, I'm happy to admit it and if providing further info helps then I'll post it... so based on what I have said, you all think I'm the kiddy catcher from CCBB but how would you have handled it and what would you have done?

I would have said please or thank you in a light hearted way to the child when they weren't saying it themselves, but other than that I wouldn't have done anything, it's not my place to get involved.

Tantrum wise maybe the child was just having a bad day, it happens. If would be different if the child was hurting one of my own, then I would step in and stop it.

She may well have been very rude but as HH says we only commented on what you posted.. What would we have done?

I'd never have passed comment in that situation. You'd never met the child before or seen the person for a long time. Certainly not your place to tell her off or comment on her behaviour to her Father imo.

WSS.

I meet a lot of children in my line of work (DJ....mostly weddings) If i have time i balloon model for the children. I often get "I want" and "give me" and snatching. It doesn't matter whether the parents are standing there or not, I smile sweetly at the child and ask them for the magic word or gently remind them they get nothing without using please or thank you. Its amazing how a childs behaviour changes when you set the limits and the expectations (of any age). Rather than upset the parents I've had positive comments like "i wish i could get him to behave like that" etc. Noone should accept rudeness from a child or adult.

Well thanks all for your opinions, I have to be honest I was toying with the idea of saying something to him, but on reflection I'll keep it to myself until we get to know each other again better.

ETA: I did say in the sweet shop, oh, *child's name* don't forget to say please, which is what i'd always do and no more. It's ashame though, because as i said right at the top she's a lovely little girl but seriously in danger of turning into a horror if her parents don't pick this up soonish.

I think I would consider it normal behaviour. I come into contact with lots of children and it is the exception rather than the rule if they are well mannered/behaved. So, I don't think I would find it odd.

One child had scattered the entire array of toys we had across the floor a couple of weeks ago and at the end of the session I asked (nicely) if he would like to put them away now. Cue massive strop. I do get put off children a bit. When I meet them in real life (as in friend's kids) they always seem fine. I think I need to spend less time at work to get better child related experiences.

L
xx

Definitely what everyone else said, that is normal 4 yo behaviour.

I know one little girl can be a horror (but I do find it quite funny, it really is comical). I never laugh at her, I always encourage her to say please and thank you and she responds to this.

Do you think she might have been excited maybe? I mean her dad hasn;t seen you for years she could have picked up on that and been just abit keen. I remember when I was excited as a child especially where sweets were involved I would momentarily forget to say please and thank you just because someone who is a "stranger" to me has been nice.

Lois I know what you mean! It does put you off a little. (and I wouldn't dream of criticising some of my friends kids to their parents when it's just them being kids. ) It just surprises me when it does happen and obviously I've been relatively lucky with having nice (in my opinion) kids around.

Kazmerelda that's a good point, she was very excited (at one point her dad pointed out the nearby school and told her we'd both been there many years ago and she said "ahhh, and you STILL love each other" which made us laugh loads.)

I am sure you're all right, and I will continue to not say anything.

I would have found that behaviour rude from a 4 year old, but really it is not her fault. She obviously has not been pulled up about it, or her father was just so embarrassed and didn't want to cause a fuss in front of an old friend. If one of my children had behaved like that, I would have taken the lollipop away from her and reminded her of her manners, until then she would have gone without. As for the tantrum outside your house, I would have picked her up put her in the car and ignored it.

I would meet with him again and see how she is next time. Maybe it was a little rebellion as her father was with someone she did not know. If you buy her sweets again, just buy them and give them to her, don't give her an option, but if she doesn't say thank you, remind her to. Maybe if that is done to her a few times she will click on.

It would be a shame to lose a friendship for one 'bad' meeting.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Its never too soon to instill good manners into a child. Unfortunately, far too many parents leave it too late. A child's behavoural patterns are set at a young age....the longer you leave it the harder it is to correct it. Excusing a child because they are only 4 is wrong in my book. Many children learn to recognise numbers and letters and even start to recognise the written word at the age of 4. Now that is a difficult concept. So no excuses can be made for not learning to say please and thank you, not snatching and a few social graces. My son number 3 is 18 now. He has ADHD severely and learning difficulties. All the way through school I was told he was off the wall....but what amazing manners he has! What he lacks in academic ability he makes up for in social grace.

Now I don't have children, but I'm in agreement with Sandy - I'd have said light-heartedly 'What's the magic word' ..... bit I must say, that if that had been, for example, my nephews, their mum or dad would have gently but firmly reminded them how to behave. Being excited is all very well but not an excuse. However, I'd also not assume from just one meeting that all is lost. Maybe her dad was just tired, or just happy to have her with him .... see how things go next time.

Well, if my four-year-old had behaved like that (which isn't remotely beyond the bounds of possibility, as I'm firmly with the "this is 100% normal 4-year-old behaviour" crowd), I certainly would have called her out on it...

...but the key word here is "my". Her behaviour is my business, and JK's, but not anybody else's - unless we've specifically appointed them childminder.

Asking to be pushed higher on a swing is normal, isn't it? What sort of spunkless child doesn't ask to go higher?

I think you're hugely overreacting to all this. Her behaviour sounds, at worst, mildly irritating at times. Of course children should say please and thank you but to even consider not seeing your friend because his daughter didn't on one occasion seems bizarre (I think you were quite right to remind her, though, and that's something I would also do, almost instinctively).

The rudeness of her asking for a bigger lolly etc is as nothing to the rudeness of you "saying something" to your friend about his daughter's less than perfect behaviour. It's nothing to do with you. TBH if I met a friend after a number of years and she gave me a lecture on one of my children forgeting to say thank you, I think I'd end the friendship. It's just weird, frankly, however well-behaved your own children are. They must be robots if they've never been excited or forgotten to say please [shrug]

To be honest, I think you suggesting my own children are robots when you know absolutely knothing about them, and it's not germane to this discussion, and shrugging at me is pretty rude in itself. And nowhere have I stated that I'd definitely say something.... with some friends i know I could say it, to others definitely not... this is one of the *not* cases, especially since the adult in question, my friend, isn't the most socially aware person, and despite being one of the nicest most intelligent people I knew at school, wasn't able to (and still isn't, it would seem) pick up on the social "cues" that I and lots of other people would consider to be normal and sadly I think this will impact on his ability to give his little girl the sort of direction that would help her as she grows up.

Thanks all, for your input, I guess I knew as a relative newbie on here I should have expected at least some of it to be quite robust!

I guess it is one of those 'you had to be there' type things. Of course children demand things etc but it sounds like Toblerone has been around enough children to know the difference between normal and rude.

L
xx

I wasn't suggesting your children were actually robots? ?, merely that they would be robots if they never showed any excitement or momentarily forgot their manners. I find it impossible to believe that any child of four is impeccably behaved all the time, that's all. It's germane to the discussion because you defended your rather harsh criticism of this girl by saying that your own children are very well-behaved (which is great)- I was merely pointing out that no child is perfectly behaved all the time, so to be so critical of a few small instances of misbehaviour is a bit ungenerous.

Anyway, I shall leave this. You'd clearly made up your mind before you posted ?

I think the OP's been given rather a hard time here actually. Whether the child's behaviour is acceptable or not isn't really the issue: the issue is whether she should pursue this friendship having taken agin the child.

I think someone else suggested that maybe meeting up with your friend sans children could be the solution - it doesn't really make sense to me why his daughter needs to be present when you see him. It would be like if you had a friend who had a dog and you were allergic to them - the solution is not to bring the dog when you see the friend, right? ?

In any event, saying anything to him about her behaviour would, as has been pointed out, have been a big mistake and v rude.

Thanks Sophie, I totally agree, definitely seeing him without the child is the way forward although I think this will definitely be a *loosely in touch* sort of friendship. I'd certainly not say anything to him at all now, as it's very clear that regardless of the passage of time, this sort of discussion is off limits for pretty much everyone. Still I'm sure she'll find her feet (and there's nothing like starting school to knock the corners off) and being an intelligent little girl I'm sure she'll soon realise how to interact.

Ahh Sandy, I agree with that, 2 of my older God children (I have 7!!) both boys, one has mild ADHD and the other has Asberger's and both have been beautifully brought up, despite the problems both conditions impose. And their manners are pretty good, in fact I would say with the chap with Asberger's it's actually helped him a great deal with how he interacts with the rest of the world, he's been taught a "blueprint" (for want of a better word) that he uses as a guide. Your son sounds lovely, I'm sure the other 2 are just as nice too.