You get the gist

TBH I personally wouldn't want to work for a company that dictated when my holiday had to be taken, so I can see her point on this. If she decided to leave you might struggle to get someone else to take on the role on this basis

I think I would tread a bit carefully, unless you are prepared for her to leave. Yes, she is taking the mickey a bit, but as you say she does her job and is reliable.

Presumably you have given her 4 weeks notice that you will be closing for 2 weeks

We sort of have to dictate some holiday, else we would never get time off. However, we are also very flaxible over what time she chooses to have off. Frankly I don't think we would replace her. Times are hard, if she chose to leave, we would probably work round it ourselves. I am very prepared for her to leave, but I am also aware that the flesibility in working hours and the current job market mean that we are not a bad option.

Yes, we have given her notice.

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It sounds like you want her to leave. Would making her redundant be an option?

I think you're doing the right thing in setting out her terms and conditions clearly in writing. If she then moans about anything just refer her to the terms and conditions. If she then doesn't like it she can leave (which sounds like it you may prefer anyway).

I think I'd be the same as you about just not wanting the hassle. I just want people to do what they're told/supposed to and leave me alone.

Are you really allowed to set all her holiday dates for her? I've never heard that before.

I can also see her point - she can't take her child out of school during term and while her child is out of school, it costs her extra to pay for childcare so obviously she's going to want to spend her summer holidays when she can be with her child. Duh.

As for paying for her to do nothing during her holiday - err, yes, that's how holidays work in the UK, I don't think that's her problem. The size of your business doesn't affect this entitlement.

I think you're being rather unfair to make her working life harder /stricter because you've changed the holiday rules and she doesn't like it. You're punishing her for something when you've not had a problem with it before.

Maybe you should edit this thread in case she finds it because it sounds like you're hoping if you make her working life hard she'll quit and I'm sure that puts you legally in the wrong.

To add, given how many posts you've written about how you're severely overstretched, are you sure youwant to ditch someone you describe as reliable and increase your work load?

Sorry to jump on your thread, but can I ask about products or can you give me a link to your website as we have to buy all our cat food online!

But Zeb, Lois isn't changing the holiday rules. It's always been like this and the woman is now complaining because it doesn't suit her. Lois said she is flexible about the rest of the holiday entitlement.

I've come across many companies that set holiday dates so I know that's nothing new.

I think Lois was just having a rant because she's fed up rather than wishing the woman would leave/trying to force her out.

To be fair to Lois though, it's by no means unusual for an employer to dictate when holidays have to be taken due to the business closing. It's often the case, for example, in a manufacturing environment, where there will be a factory closure for two weeks and everyone then has to take their annual leave at that time. I've also seen posts on Hitched over the years where people have referenced that their employers (both large and small) are closing down for a week over Christmas or at some other designated time and the employees just have to suck it up and take those days off as part of their annual leave.

I'm pretty sure it's not unlawful - although I think it would be a good idea to get all of the workplace Ts & Cs down in writing and agreed just to cover yourself, Lois.

I'm with Zebra on this one. If you decide to take holiday, then so be it, but you shouldn't force your employees to take theirs then too.

In terms of the holiday this time, could you offer her two weeks unpaid leave so her paid entitlement would be unaffected and you wouldn't be out of pocket?

You can set her holidays for her but if this hasn't been the case before I can understand why she would be miffed, especially depending on how much notice you have given her for this two weeks. Also she is entitled to holiday pay and this is something that all businesses big and small have to pay out for. Putting her terms etc in writing should be a good idea but I wouldbe careful not to be putting things there that haven't existed before. Also I'd be wary of changing things in the (maybe subconcious) hope that she will quit in case she sees it as a way of going for constructive dismissal/causing her to have a work related stress absence etc etc.

Is making her redundant an option?

Absolutely but then it's clear from the start that those are the times the factory or whatever shuts down, it's an annual thing, and it's usually at a time that fits in with school holidays - eg, Xmas and Trade's Fortnight. If that doesn't suit you, you'd find another employer.

Knownowt - I agree with you, I've been on this forum for years and I've never seen anything to suggest that Lois likes or appreciates any of her employees. I like Lois but I'd rather scrub toilets than work for her (and no, I'd not anyone's cleaner if they resented the thought of even giving them a cup of tea).

I don't know if it's in any way relevant to anyone (I'm getting sleepy ?) but since retiring, my mum now works 12 hours a week for a small business (a local jewellers with 1 owner/jeweller and 3 part time retirement age women). When the owner goes on holiday, my mum gets paid even though she isn't working. She can have holidays at any other times but they will be unpaid.

She is quite happy to have the paid holidays as her holiday so it works ok there but I can see why it would be irksome to others in having to take unpaid leave for holiday, say if they wanted to go away with school age children etc. When my mum had to come down here for my operation, he paid her for the two days of work she missed as compassionate leave of sorts.

Yes, apologies- I deleted my reply as I was worried it sounded a bit harsh.

Yes, I do sound resentful. I kind of get it all off my chest here, because in reality we try to be so fecking accommodating and frankly, it isn't worth doing so, because as I learn time and again, the more you give, the more people want to take.

I haven't changed anything, we have always had to fix some holidays, otherwise, practically speaking, there would be no job. If we go on holiday, the bsuiness cannot operate, simple as.

Zeb, you are right, we need the help. tbh, I am at meltdown point. We are trying to do too much. But we simply don't have spare money and I don't think staff, generally, understand remotely that we do not have some kind of magical income source outside of the sales within the business.

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Wow, I certainly do come across as a biatch, I guess

Btw, our longest serving member of staff in the studio has been with us for just over a year. He does a fantastic job, is creative, reliable and generally, I am dreading him going to uni because we will struggle to replace him. We also have a really good craic together. I have never mentioned him on here, I don't think, though, because I have never felt the need to vent about him.

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More like someone stretched far too far - it sounds like every extra decision or problem, however big or small, that comes up is a major hassle because you don't have time to deal with stuff on a day to day basis. You sound like your employees just cause you endless extra work and you know, while having employees adds to admin, if they overall increase your work load, something isn't right!

What's happened in previous years with this woman's holidays? Has the "we're closing on x random dates" not caused problems before? Or have they fallen in school holidays by accident?

Edited to say, if the longest employee is 1 year, then I guess the issue hasn't come up before. It sounds like the woman wasn't expecting her holidays to be fixed in this way - wasn't it made clear? If not, then I'm not surprised she's annoyed.

I don't think you come across as a biatch Lois but you are sounding pretty stressed. Perhaps your employee has picked up on that and thinks you're being arsy whilst you think she is? Can you compromise on the holiday this year and set something out for the future where the business will be closed on a certain date - although this might not be feasible.

Call a meeting with her and ask if you can both go through and write up a contract together so she won't feel put upon and has no argument if anything like this comes up in the future.

Lois, I think you are probably just venting her as you are frustrated but it doesn't actually sound like she is being that unreasonable. Legally you may require an employee to take all of their holiday at a particular times but if you do then I don't think it is very surprising if they are not jumping for joy about it, especially if they have children and it is during term time.

You mention that you don't have a written contract of employment with this woman. You should do this asap, even if it is just to protect yourself. It is a legal requirement that you provide a written statement of particulars. Also you need to be careful about suddenly altering her working practices. In the absence of a written contract certain things could have become terms of employment through custom and practice.

I really don't think you do, honestly. ? Just someone who is stressed and quite possibly overstretched. xx

She has worked for us for over two years and holidays have ALWAYS been a mix of set by us and floating. For example, we close for two weeks over Christmas. We usually close for a week in September (outside of school holidays). Last year we also closed for a week in June. We tend to up her holiday allowance if we feel that we've closed an unreasonable amount to make sure she has time with her daughter. We also rearrange delivery days for her if, for example, she needs a day but doesn't want it to be a holiday. I am not actually an ogre, as it happens.

Anyway, net result is I have, as was inevitable, altered our time off to suit her more.

As for cups of tea, I make tea for anyone who comes in the bloody building. I wondered on the etiquette for cleaners as I know they have limited time, and this is new to me. I do not 'begrudge' someone a cup of fecking tea, nor the time it takes to drink it.

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Lois, sorry if I have offended you. I should be clear I don't think you are an ogre but having worked for someone who was perpetually over stretched, and who made you feel guilty if you approached her with any issues because it was all just so much extra work and inconvenience (without actually saying so in so many words), I am rather sensitive to the employee's side.

But you are projecting that person on to me, and that's a huge assumption, zeb. Because while YOU may know I am stretched to the point of madness, you could probably ask any customer, staff member, random who knows me and they will think I am very laid back and upbeat. It is maintaining THAT lois that is sending me mad, most likely.

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I too dont think its reaonable to dictate this womans holidays to her unless you have say, a summer shutdown which is in school holidays - or unless it was made crystal clear to her that this may happen and she accepted it. be carefu with the new contract, she could argue that you are introducing new terms and by virtue of that, possibly constructive dismisal. take professional advice

"i d rather scrub toilets than work for lois" ?

We have ALWAYS had a mix of holidays that are fixed by us and some floating. This has been made clear from interview stage, it isn't new, it has happened from the very start. And whilst I know it isn't ideal, I would suggest if it doesn't suit someone, they should consider it before they take a job, or some time perhaps during their first two years.

The contract will have whatever the legal position is in it. Tbh, if she wants to argue, sue us, whatever I am beyond giving a damn. What's the worst that can happen? She gets awarded some amount of money we can't afford to pay? So what?

I genuinely feel that we do everything we can to be reasonable. If she needs time off at short notice, we try to make it achievable. When she needed 3 weeks compassionate leave, she had it. As far as I am concerned, the sole thing that we have done wrong is not provide a contract. Now this is a big mistake, huge, but I don't actually think it makes me a complete cow.

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You are not a cow at all and no-one is saying that. I think some people misread your post (and maybe it touched a nerve for some).

You've clearly got a lot going on and staff being a pain (and unconstructive critistim on here) are the last thing you need. You know you need to do the contract so everything is set out clearly and you can just refer any moans back to it. I don't know how many staff you have but as you are writing the terms up anyway would it be worth making it a sort of staff handbook?

I don't do hugs and know you're not keen so here is a none hug }}}}{{{{.

Lois, no one thinks you're a cow.

How old is the employee's daughter? If she has only recently started school maybe thats why its only recently become an issue.

Good idea to offload outside the company - I used to work for a small business - one of the partners was dreadful and ranty to all the employees because she thought that they should be as loyal to the company as she was. I remember her screaming 'but I give you all time to go downstairs to the sandwich van' one day when no one wanted to stay and work late for free... I wish she had aired her frustrations elsewhere instead of at us.

I think you're being quite rude now and I don't think being stressed really excuses it. No-one has called you the names you keep bandying about. On the whole I think people have been sympathetic and constructive. You've not acknowledged most of the advice or suggestions you've been given.

Lois the contract idea sounds like a good one - I guess its a bit similar to us employing our nanny, we have got everything laid out so at least we all know where we stand and then if we're more flexible we can feel it goes into the goodwill pot and hopefully we'll get something in exchange for it in the future

For us we set two weeks of holiday and she sets another two weeks so we each get to arrange 50% of the entitlement which works out ok (although she gets more because of us sharing leave over Christmas and Easter)

I hate having to act as boss-woman but guess it may make things easier in the long run, especially if she's starting to push the limits on things

Sorry.

Ref the advice - we will provide a contract; I cannot fix holidays very far in advance; redundancy is potentially an option for any employee, ever; she cannot be self employed as legally she would not be seen as such; we have discussed the balance between holidays/unpaid leave previously and can do so again. Have I missed anything? It is very difficult to reply to previous posts, I find, as you cannot view them as you post.

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