Do you believe?

I don't think it is easy to prove. You can't get everyone claiming to have this ability to take part in scientific studies, for numerous reasons, not least the claim they can't perform under such conditions, or the fact that so many of their "customers" do believe them they simply have no need to prove it to a man in a white coat and thus won't be interested in taking part anyway.

In a way it is similar to religion, as someone's communication with God could not be tested under such conditions either, and they would continue to believe even when you showed them evidence they were not in contact with god (if you follow me)

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Just to play devils avocado, Since it is not possible to prove this either way, are the people convinced this is bollocks simply being as niave as those convinced there is something in it?

id="quote">

Not after reading and seeing it demostrated by Derren Brown and James Randi.

I do belive that there is an afterlife/resting place/next step/. But have not recived any evidence that the two places interact.

Addressing the poster...

Yes i believe. I've seen spirts myself and my Mother and Grandmother (r.i.p) are what people label as being Psychic mediums.

quote:Originally posted by Lillythepink

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Just to play devils avocado, Since it is not possible to prove this either way, are the people convinced this is bollocks simply being as niave as those convinced there is something in it?

id="quote">

How do you prove a negative?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. None of the claims to contact the dead can be tested empirically, and despite James Randi's long-standing offer of $1m to anyone who CAN do it under scientific conditions, no one in the last 30 years has been able to do so.

Add to the equation Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is the most likely. If you can replicate (and indeed improve on) the effects of the readings by trickery, cold reading, hot reading, body lanaguage etc, why would you suppose that there is anything more to it than that. Basically, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck &walks like a duck, why would you suppose it's a raccoon in disguise?

"Comforting lies for the criminally gullible" imo. It appalls me that these charlatans can make money out of exploiting the grief of others, it disgusts me that it's dressed up as entertainment in the form of Most Haunted etc. it revolts me that we do not prosecute these people for fraudulent earnings.

id="quote">

You could say the same of people's belief in religion though. You can't prove the existence of God yet people don't get met with the same disdain for believing in it.

Ah but religion is a sacred cow, innit?
?

I feel the same way about religion incidentally. Difference being that the founders of christianity never came out and declared it a hoax, unlike the lovely Fox sisters who started the spiritualist movement.

What does not sit well with me is the fact there is a fee for sharing the "gift". I dont have to give in the collection plate every sunday and belifs can be practised anytime anywhere. Neither do I like the religions where the place of worship looks like a penthouse and the pastor is dressed in designer gear; and the t.v evangelicals encouraging people to call in give vast amounts of money by linking it to a verse...*shudder*

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Just to play devils avocado, Since it is not possible to prove this either way, are the people convinced this is bollocks simply being as niave as those convinced there is something in it?

id="quote">

because it should be possible to prove it.

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey
Addressing the poster...

Yes i believe. I've seen spirts myself and my Mother and Grandmother (r.i.p) are what people label as being Psychic mediums.

id="quote">


I've been sitting on my hands, but can't any longer. ? I have to bite.....

You've actually seen a spirit/ghost? Go on...

quote:Originally posted by Elle

quote:Originally posted by Lillythepink

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Just to play devils avocado, Since it is not possible to prove this either way, are the people convinced this is bollocks simply being as niave as those convinced there is something in it?

id="quote">

How do you prove a negative?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. None of the claims to contact the dead can be tested empirically, and despite James Randi's long-standing offer of $1m to anyone who CAN do it under scientific conditions, no one in the last 30 years has been able to do so.

Add to the equation Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is the most likely. If you can replicate (and indeed improve on) the effects of the readings by trickery, cold reading, hot reading, body lanaguage etc, why would you suppose that there is anything more to it than that. Basically, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck &walks like a duck, why would you suppose it's a raccoon in disguise?

"Comforting lies for the criminally gullible" imo. It appalls me that these charlatans can make money out of exploiting the grief of others, it disgusts me that it's dressed up as entertainment in the form of Most Haunted etc. it revolts me that we do not prosecute these people for fraudulent earnings.

id="quote">

You could say the same of people's belief in religion though. You can't prove the existence of God yet people don't get met with the same disdain for believing in it.

id="quote">

they do as far as i m concerned. simply more bollocks.

Nick- as I posted before, how can it be possible to prove all those claiming to have this gift don't? I can't see how that is possible.

quote:Originally posted by NickJ
they do as far as i m concerned. simply more bollocks.

id="quote">

I'll say a prayer for you Nick. ?

quote:Originally posted by Minx Sauce

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey
Addressing the poster...

Yes i believe. I've seen spirts myself and my Mother and Grandmother (r.i.p) are what people label as being Psychic mediums.

id="quote">


I've been sitting on my hands, but can't any longer. ? I have to bite.....

You've actually seen a spirit/ghost? Go on...

id="quote">Yes My Great Nana who i had never met before when i was about 8. I had never been told about how she looked or seen a photo. But i used to see her alot in my bedroom. She had hair down to her legs, the top part was white and the bottom black. Because she didn't cut her hair in a v long time.
And years later when i was about 18 i saw my Grandad who had passed away. Amoung others but i think i've given you enough to laugh about now.

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Nick- as I posted before, how can it be possible to prove all those claiming to have this gift don't? I can't see how that is possible.

id="quote">

but why do we have to prove a negative (as lilly said) ?

if i told you i had a 14 inch cock, but i wouldnt show it to you, you would say that i didnt have one until i proved it, yes?

i would say no no hyancinth, but i do have a 14 inch cock, you prove i dont.

doesnt work does it?

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Nick- as I posted before, how can it be possible to prove all those claiming to have this gift don't? I can't see how that is possible.

id="quote">

- delusional
- fraudsters
- liars
- mentally ill
- faith

Why should you presume they have a gift they claim to have? The joy of claiming to be psychic/a medium/clairvoyant is that like religion, you don't have to prove it, and people will pay you to make up bollocks. It's a sure fire winner.

I am a gifted medium. Someone in your family has died. I'm seeing a male, J name.

Why do the deceased get so forgetful about their own names? Would it be because the medium is guessing?

How many people have a dead relative/friend with a name beginning with J? Middle names & surnames count, remember...

quote:Originally posted by Pint&APie

quote:Originally posted by NickJ
they do as far as i m concerned. simply more bollocks.

id="quote">

I'll say a prayer for you Nick. ?

id="quote">

dont waste your time. buy me a beer instead, more worthwhile ?

quote:Originally posted by NickJ

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Nick- as I posted before, how can it be possible to prove all those claiming to have this gift don't? I can't see how that is possible.

id="quote">

but why do we have to prove a negative (as lilly said) ?

if i told you i had a 14 inch cock, but i wouldnt show it to you, you would say that i didnt have one until i proved it, yes?

i would say no no hyancinth, but i do have a 14 inch cock, you prove i dont.

doesnt work does it?

id="quote">

You don't have to prove anything. What I mean is until "you" can, people will still question both parties, and until then neither can say with 100% certainty they are correct.

I'd probably ambush you in a dark alley BTW ?

ETA- LTP I've jsut seen your reply, and whilst everything you say is true, it doesn't prove its bollocks, does it?

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
until "you" can, people will still question both parties, and until then neither can say with 100% certainty they are correct.

id="quote">

OK, you've got me.

I will ammend my original position.

I am ****% sure these a parlour tricks for the feeble minded.

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey

quote:Originally posted by Minx Sauce

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey
Addressing the poster...

Yes i believe. I've seen spirts myself and my Mother and Grandmother (r.i.p) are what people label as being Psychic mediums.

id="quote">


I've been sitting on my hands, but can't any longer. ? I have to bite.....

You've actually seen a spirit/ghost? Go on...

id="quote">Yes My Great Nana who i had never met before when i was about 8. I had never been told about how she looked or seen a photo. But i used to see her alot in my bedroom. She had hair down to her legs, the top part was white and the bottom black. Because she didn't cut her hair in a v long time.
And years later when i was about 18 i saw my Grandad who had passed away. Amoung others but i think i've given you enough to laugh about now.

id="quote">


I won't laugh at you, don't worry ?

I don't believe it, but I won't laugh. I do, however, believe that there are people who really do believe they've seen/communicated with a deceased relative/friend/stranger.

Barking, of course.

As lilly said (timely), why cant they just say "i have a clear message from claire jones for her Husband Paul. She says that she buried 20 grand in the back garden in a box in 1998. you ll find it 4 feet west of the apple tree, 5 feet under the soil"


no, they cant, because they are putting out feelers to an audience, the most males names of a certain age begin with ....J

they then offer more feeler questions when they get a bite on the J, like "i can sense a terrible illness". well dur, someones died, chances are its from a disease like cancer.

the person then says "oh yes <wail>" so they then go for the big killers. if male, they might say abdomen, and then isolate it to the prostate. if female, they may say abdomen as well, and pin it down the breast.

i am baffled as to why anyone is taken in by this.

if someone came to me and said the above about the apple tree, and they were not connected to the family in any way, nor the persons work or indeed anything else, then i may believe it. but look, its not going to happen.

Therefore, I will continue to worship the magical pink unicorn that lives in the bottom of my garden. You can't see it, but it's there and it created the entire universe. You can't prove it's not there, and you can't prove it doesn't exist. My claim is JUST as valid as Derek Acorah/Colin Fry/any medium you can mention.


I still don't get how when it's been AMPLY demonstrated you can achieve the same or better results by trickery people persist in believing that the duck is a raccoon dressed up as a duck. Your logic does not resemble our earth logic ?

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth

quote:Originally posted by NickJ

quote:Originally posted by Hyacinth
Nick- as I posted before, how can it be possible to prove all those claiming to have this gift don't? I can't see how that is possible.

id="quote">

but why do we have to prove a negative (as lilly said) ?

if i told you i had a 14 inch cock, but i wouldnt show it to you, you would say that i didnt have one until i proved it, yes?

i would say no no hyancinth, but i do have a 14 inch cock, you prove i dont.

doesnt work does it?

id="quote">

You don't have to prove anything. What I mean is until "you" can, people will still question both parties, and until then neither can say with 100% certainty they are correct.

I'd probably ambush you in a dark alley BTW ?

ETA- LTP I've jsut seen your reply, and whilst everything you say is true, it doesn't prove its bollocks, does it?

id="quote">

It's not possible to prove that it's bollocks, as you say. However, given that we know it's possible to do these things by cold reading (as demonstrated to remarkable effect by James Randi, Derren Brown etc), any sensible person surely starts with a working assumption that it's bollocks. Occam's razor, innit?

quote:Originally posted by Lillythepink
Therefore, I will continue to worship the magical pink unicorn that lives in the bottom of my garden. You can't see it, but it's there and it created the entire universe. You can't prove it's not there, and you can't prove it doesn't exist. My claim is JUST as valid as Derek Acorah/Colin Fry/any medium you can mention.


I still don't get how when it's been AMPLY demonstrated you can achieve the same or better results by trickery people persist in believing that the duck is a raccoon dressed up as a duck. Your logic does not resemble our earth logic ?

id="quote">

exactly.

i mean ffs, when derren brown demonstrates how its done, like with the "reading" which was the same for all, WHY do people still believe in this shit? why? because they want to believe i guess. they need to believe in it for some weird reason.

actually, i would LOVE to go to one and heckle. "listen to him! he s going for the J! listen now, he ll try for the disease!" ?

I see nothing wrong in anybody not believing but laughing at people who believe and/or see spirits isn't a nice thing to do.
I mean we can all say we don't believe in (example) God but it's disrespectful to the believer to suggest they're barking mad.

And i agree there are alot of charlatans about, but not everyone is.
My Mother doesn't use her gift as a business. She doesn't ever advertise. People contact her out of recommendation. She only asks for a donation so people don't take her for granted. She doesn't care the amount people choose to give.

Nick, you'd get thrown out so fast for that ?


The other thing is, no one whose intelligence I respect believes in this stuff. Lots of people I regard as stoopids do. Therefore, I'm minded to bleieve it's a panacea for the thick and desperate.

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey

My Mother doesn't use her gift as a business. She doesn't ever advertise . . . She only asks for a donation.

id="quote">

??

Nick, at a John Edward gig, you would get dragged out and pummelled by the enormous eavesdropping bodyguards.

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey
I see nothing wrong in anybody not believing but laughing at people who believe and/or see spirits isn't a nice thing to do.
I mean we can all say we don't believe in (example) God but it's disrespectful to the believer to suggest they're barking mad.

And i agree there are alot of charlatans about, but not everyone is.
My Mother doesn't use her gift as a business. She doesn't ever advertise. People contact her out of recommendation. She only asks for a donation so people don't take her for granted. She doesn't care the amount people choose to give.

id="quote">

?

well said
disrespectful to suggest the person is wrong to believe also.

quote:Originally posted by SophieM
Nick, you'd get thrown out so fast for that ?


The other thing is, no one whose intelligence I respect believes in this stuff. Lots of people I regard as stoopids do. Therefore, I'm minded to bleieve it's a panacea for the thick and desperate.

id="quote">Alot of people don't tell people they believe or see for this one reason.
Then again i'm sure people who have insight wouldn't give a flying fig what you thought anyway.

I can see why people believe in it, I would love to myself but I simply can't. I feel the same about religion.

quote:Originally posted by Kookachu

I guess it 'helps' some people that are grieving, etc etc as they want answers and will believe anything that they hear. If that gives them some kind of comfort, then leave them to it, I say.

id="quote">

well you could say that. but i think its incredibly dangerous, and terribly tragic in that situation.

woman in her mid twenties goes to one of these things. she s clutching a pink teddy bear. its not a wild assumption to make that she s lost a (female) child. what gets me about it, is that the "psychic" will pick that up right away, and then "wow" the person by saying "i can see a little girl, shes happy..." etc.

this to me is wrong, criminal in fact.

quote:Originally posted by Lillythepink
Nick, at a John Edward gig, you would get dragged out and pummelled by the enormous eavesdropping bodyguards.

id="quote">


really? when is there one? come on, lets go to heckle and tut ?

i d so love to go to one i must say.

quote:Originally posted by Pint&APie

quote:Originally posted by WIseMonkey

My Mother doesn't use her gift as a business. She doesn't ever advertise . . . She only asks for a donation.

id="quote">

??

id="quote">Yes. She supports the local Cats Protection.
Why so amusing?