further to "your tits are spilling out" remarks...

Oh dear. I'd go in to work with a jacket, take off jacket revealing nothing in below and if he comments then you can say at least they weren't spilling out of anything.

Thus spilling out boobs will be a compromise and everyone's happy ?

He SO fancies you.

This confirms my thoughts last time - this is sexual harrassment. He's out of order.

i still dont agree with that.

however, his comments are innapropriate, and he should be told, clearly, and without room for jokes or misunderstanding on his part.

From an HR perspective, this could absolutely be classed as sexual harrassment.

I'd tell him one more time that any comments of this nature are unwelcome. If he does it again, take it further.

HR policy varies from firm to firm winkle, as i m sure you know, so whereas you might class it as such, i doubt a court would. thats not to say its wildly innapropriate though, and the guy is an idiot. if he is explicitly told by her not to repeat it, and then does so, THEN it would undoubtedly be SH.

Meh. I'm not so uncomfortable that I'd bring HR into it, and frankly, on a team of 5, all of whom other than me are blokes, I think, to a degree, it's par for the course. I just put it down to idiocy and leave it alone. In the scheme of things, it's not the worst thing I've had said to me by a line manager, though I do feel more self-conscious now about wearing lighter/smaller vests etc in the summer months.

And also to be fair, I took the piss out of his short-shorts the entire day he wore them. Sauce for the goose?

No. He didn't ask you to stop making hte comments. If he had, you would.

It's very very poor of him to refuse a direct request. I know you don't want to get HR involved but if it makes you uncomfortable you should raise it with him again or with his line manager or HR. It doesn't have to be a full on formal complaint but i's not fair that you feel rubbish as a result. The sexual harassment tag is maybe not the way you want to go but it makes you uncomfortable and that's all that's needed for it to be inappropriate (and I thought that the law now defined harassment in this way).

Well yes and no. you made comments to him, he made comments to you.

the difference is, his to you made you feel uncomfortable.

i agree with the others that if it happens again you need to say, but i also agree with you in that if the normal day to day involves a lot of banter, and everyone is usually ok with that, then its difficult because if you do say explicitly, the dynamics will change dramatically.

maybe put it down to experience, you cool off with your comments, and see what happens? if he carries on, then say?

Thanks for replies, all. I know it looks and sounds like sexual harassment - I honestly don't think he realises that it bothers me - and while I don't make remarks about anyone else's body parts (bar his ears!), I can give as good as I get. Sometimes it's very childish - he pokes me and I flick his ears, so the lines are very blurred. Thankfully, I have been straight up with WTP from the beginning, so he's very supportive, and says I should wear whatever I am comfortable in (bless him) so that's all fine.

Thanks again. I only posted today to update my earlier babblings. ?

He pokes you and you flick his ears?! ? this information would have been just a weeee bit useful to have had before ?

"well your honour, he commented about my boobs"

"yes mrsltp, but do come on, you poked him, and he flicked your ears - case dismissed ?

meh. I said there was a lot of childishness & banter - I thought that covered it. ?

I agree with what WTP said ?

Don't change how you dress, if you're happy with what you wear that's all that counts - every time he steps over the line tell him you don't appreciate the comments, eventually he'll realise it does bother you and I'm pretty sure will be mortified with himself.

Or do what I do - joke that you're keeping an evidence log ready for your tribunal ? I even had a dream a little while back that I did it, if I recall I got a years salary and 10k for counselling, I was quite tempted to pursue one after that - I could do with a nice lump sum of money...

Lili, I can't even joke about that. He's already utterly paranoid about my CBT journal and what gets written in it. ?

Hmmm, maybe I need to be taking tips from you then ?

HR policy does vary from firm to firm, but is based on employment law. This absolutely could be classed as sexual harrassment by a court. Maybe not so much with the flicking ears etc...? but on their own, comments like the ones LTP mentions could be.

Well, good luck with bringing a tribunal ?

Part of the definition of sexual harrassment:

Conduct Of A Sexual Nature

Many different kinds of conduct—verbal, visual or physical—that is of a sexual nature may be sexual harassment, if the behavior is unwelcome and if it is severe or pervasive. Here are some more examples:

Verbal or written: Comments about clothing, personal behavior, or a person’s body; sexual or sex-based jokes; requesting sexual favors or repeatedly asking a person out; sexual innuendoes; telling rumors about a person’s personal or sexual life; threatening a person

Winkle, i know that, thank you. the point here is that one initial comment was made which was unwelcome, and that comment was in the context of the usual dynamics of the office (see ltps note that she took the piss out of the guys short shorts all day). on that basis, it is not SH, and no tribunal would see it as such in reality. a person cant just cry foul over a single comment, when that person has been indulging in a similar style of comments to the person concerned. come on.

his lack of recognition of what he said however, thats a seperate issue, and i stand by what i said earlier about that.

exactly.

People define severe differently. I don't think LTP has a case because of all the banter, but if she asks him to stop making those comments and he carries on, then I suspect she would. Sexual harrassment cases aren't black and white - people have been found guilty for comments exactly like those that LTP has had said to her.

yes, in cases where it has been sustained, and not reciprocated. lets keep it in context.

Erm, I have. If you read my comments above I said that LTP wouldn't have a case at the moment but that if it carried on after she asked it to stop she would.

Yes, but there is a dichotomy to your posts. on the one hand, you argue that its sexual harrassment. on the other, you say that on the basis of the banter, it isnt. we both made the same point about if it were to carry on earlier, and we agree on that, so make your mind up ?

Exactly, which is why you can't definitively say it's not IYSWIM. Also, you can't say it absoutely is. I think I'll shut up now. ?

When I had just heard about the comments, I said it could be classesd as sexual harrassment, then LTP mentioned the banter so I agreed it probably wouldn't be at the moment. The point I was trying to make was that the actual comments themselves could be classed as harrassment. If that makes any sense.

I have absolutly nothing constructive to say, but I now have a stupid song from The Simpsons stuck in my head from this thread!

#We love short shorts - repeat infinately!

Fecking hell, that all got a bit sparky.

I don't really think it's sexual harrasment, I think it's OTT banter. I have told him it makes me uncomfortable, and I can handle it (at the moment) without HR.

Thank you all again for your thoughts

Gosh Lily, what a PITA. I stick by my first instinct (ie that he somewhat fancies you).

As for the legal Q- there is no strict definition of what constitiutes harassment. Whilst his behaviour ticks many of the boxes on the checklist of what *could* amount to harassment, there are a couple of elements missing- 1. you don't feel particularly harassed or bullied by it (and the test is fairly subjective through the eyes of the purported victim) and 2. the banter seems to be directed equally towards the men and women in the group, hence no gender bias.

Only you know, via your experience and gut feeling, how best to handle this situation so as to minimise problems in the future. ?