Legal advice? engagement ring!!

I have no knowledge of the laws or anything but perhaps the Citizen's Advice Bureau could help?

Phew! I dont know anything about the legalities so wont even go there, but the fact that its worth less than some bloke 'said' it was is his word against your OH's, the ring isnt worth less than you paid for it, so nothing you can do really.

I don't think you can do anything about the whole price thing. Yes, it was wrong of him to lie about the saving but as he hasn't stitched you up (ie. Given you a ring worth less than what you paid) then there isn't really anything that can be done. However, the fact it isn't hallmarked is concerning. Can you speak to the owner of the shop where he works & question it? I'm sure you'd need it stamped before you get it insured as you can't describe it as palladium without the hallmark. Good luck x

To be honest, I don't think there's anything you can do. Your OH paid less for the ring than it is worth, and the ex is not legally obliged to give you anything of higher value. It would be different if you found out that the ring was worth less than actually paid. I would cut your losses, be glad with the valuation you've received for the insurance, and steer well clear of the slimeball in the future.

My step dad makes jewellery so I might be able to find out. From what I think I know, it means your ring can't be sold as it has no value, it can't be identified as essentially that's what the hall mark does. Have you contacted trading standards?

Look at this website, might help

http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/assay-office/hallmarking/all-about-hallmarking/

And this

http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/media/3962568/hallmarking%20-%20guidance%20notes%20black%20book.pdf

Can't advise on the leaglity issues etc, but surely part of the cost of a bespoke ring is the design process, paying for a jewellers time to make it etc, whereas most jewellery valuations are not based on design but o the size, quality and total carats of stones and the weight of metal... while this is not likely to double your valuation, it might add some to the 'cost' your OH should have paid.

Not much confort I'm sure, but like the other's im not sure there's much you can do about the discrepancy in value...

Yeah the bespoke aspect is probably what makes him value it at £1250 instead of £950-£1000 like the other jewellers....but the jewellers i got a second opinion off said it would never be worth more than that (never £2,500!!) and they knew it was made specially!

i realise that there isn't much we can do about the price he's just an idiot and OH will just have to get over it but i think the hallmarking needs to be sorted as it means it was sold illegally!! the article that laura lou sent me states:

''The UK Hallmarking Act (1973) states that it is an offence for any person, in the course of trade or business, to describe an un-hallmarked article as being wholly or partly made of precious metal(s) or to supply un-hallmarked articles to which such a description is applied.''

which is similar to what i have been reading but not sure what the consequence of someone breaking this 'act' are?!?!

grrr i'm just annoyed for OH, he knows he's been stupid to trust him! x

I don't know what the consequences are, may be a fine. Either way by law he should have taken that ring to be hallmarked and hasn't. This now affects you as its valueless. Do you have a certificate for it? If I speak to my mum later I'll try and find out what happens if you don't hallmark jewellery, unless there might be a HIB on here who would know before then.

As for the what he said originally its your his word against your OHs as to how much it was meant to be worth, not sure there's much you can do about that. I'd phone trading standards though about the lack of hallmark.

This may help

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=Trading-Standards%2FPageLayout&cid=1223092622858&pagename=BCC%2FCommon%2FWrapper%2FInlineWrapper

Again, I can't advise on the specifics of the legalities of hallmarking etc but would strongly advise you to keep any texts/emails/communication and notes of any conversations (with dates/times etc) just in case you are asked to provide evidence of this in the future.

On the issue of the value, he has effectively admitted that the 'wrong' ring was provided and there may be a case to be put forward here. Those texts you mentioned may be the proof you need so whatever you do, don't delete them until you've spoken to a legal expert.

What a nightmare for you both though. I have to say, well done to you for being so incredibly calm about your OH going to the guy in the first place. I'm not sure I would have been quite so forgiving! lol

Please let us know what happens. Good luck!

Regardless of the amount, he still did you a favour by selling you a ring for less than it was worth - are you really so caught up in the material value of it that you're upset and considering legal action??

I genuinely can't get my head around the issue here. Your OH proposed to you, you have a beautiful ring which you love - what else matters?

Exactly this.

I'd never dream of asking my H what he paid for my ring. I couldn't care less if her got it from a 20p machine, got a brillaint deal or was ripped off to be honest. It's my ring and I wouldn't change it.

Why are you so concerned with it's value? Do you intend to sell it?

I'd chase the hallmark issue, but that's it. Most sales pitches will big something up and inflate the RRP, you just have to do your homework before you part with your cash.

And this.

I am getting the feeling that your level of upset is at least partly affected by the fact you don't like the guy who sold your OH the ring and you didn't want the ring bought from him. Would you have pursued this so much if it hadn't been him?

I agree that the hallmarking issue should be rectified but other than that there is not much you can do. Your OH needed to clarifiy at the beginning whether the £2,500 valuation was based on the value of the materials made to create the ring or in the 'artistic value' applied by the crafter to his end product. They are two very different things and the guy could argue that he meant the latter i.e. that if he were selling that ring that is the price he would have asked for it.

No i am not planning on insurance fraud, how ridiculous!
The money is irrelavant really, I wouldn't be bothered if he had said to H2B 'hey il give you a ring worth £1000 for £900' then fair enough but surely it's bad practice to claim something is worth wayyyy more than it is as a ploy to sell it to somebody? I see it as the same as a shop advertising an item at twice it's price and then saying it's 'in the sale' at 50% off .... you get all excited and buy it and then find out the original price was made up...would that not p**s you off??
if not then you are obviously a more forgiving person than me!!

I don't think my post sounds like i'm going to call the police...i never once said that I just wanted to know what the consequence of not following 'Acts' were as according to that act he has commited an offence...he has illegally sold my H2B my ring!

As for not buying it from an 'official place' he did buy it from an 'official place' this guys works at an independant established jewellers, he just does the bespoke/custom made service...it wasn't some back street deal! I don't feel I should have to pay to get my ring hallmarked when he shouldn't have sold it without!!

I agree money wise there probably isn't much that can be done but how many other people has he claimed he would do a deal for in order to get the business when infact he's doing no favours whatsoever but actually selling you an illegal ring The money was paid through the shop so not sure if it will be the shop or him that would be in the wrong!

Because he has sold my H2B a ring illegally without a hallmark and in the process lied considerably about the value etc
as i say i love my ring and i'm not going to be sending it back or getting a refund or anything I just feel like he has been sneaky!

No I am not planning on selling it ever, I love it!
I suppose i'm just annoyed that H2B would part with that amount of money to someone like him just because he believed him...if H2B didn't think he was getting a deal he would have gone elsewhere if that makes sense

and i didn't ask OH how much it was he told me, i think in order to justify going to get it from someone we all supposedly dislike!

Hallmark issue - take it back and get it hallmarked - you shouldn't be paying for that.

Value wise, I'm afraid you are stuck. Value is a very subjective thing. If you bought a Tiffany ring and took it to be independently valued, it probably wouldn't be 'worth' what you paid for it as you're paying for a brand.

The same could be applied here.

As it is, you have a ring that's worth more than you paid for it. He may well have been 'sneaky' but that doesn't give you any legal grounds I'm afraid.

Without meaning to sound daft, given all your other concerns, are you sure the ring is a precious metal and subject to the hallmarking laws? To be honest, I'd be tempted to take it somewhere else entirely and have it looked at properly. I would also clarify with your OH exactly what he asked this guy to do and in what metal. You need to get to the bottom of how the £2,500 was expressed before you can accuse him of lying about it. Bespoke items are essentially 'art' and as such the value is to a degree subjective. As I said in my previous post, £2,500 may be this guy's valuation of the ring as a piece of bespoke work.

This is true i agree that I really disliked this guy to start with and I am annoyed my OH went to him but he already feels bad about it all so I can't go on about it to him! I guess I just thought seen as he has screwed my OH's family over before (with my SIL2B) that this time he might actually do him a favour, something nice maybe to make it up to them and he's turned round and done it again with something so special!! he can't be trusted no! so money wise i'm only bothered because it's him and that he has my OH's hard earned cash and that annoyd me A LOT but as far as the hallmarking goes i would persue that with anyone...if it's illegal then it's illegal! that needs to be sorted i think!

Because I am annoyed that this idiot has my OH's money in his pocket through lying (OH wouldn't have gone to him otherwise, his fault yes maybe!)
And it is official if he designed it in the shop, processed it through the shop, paid on card to the shop and the valuation is provided by the shop, he didn't hide the fact he was making the ring for OH from the shop, it wasn't 'dodgy' like that....and I want them to hallmark it for me but I don't trust him to have my ring, I feel so mad at him that I don't really want him near it again but i suppose i have no choise unless i want to fork out for it to be hallmarked...

I was asking about the court regarding the hallmarking, i am totally clueless about laws/acts etc and all i could find was that it was 'an offence' to break the act and i just wanted to know what that meant e.g whether they can get in real trouble (police/court etc) or whether it just meant they will get a visit from trading standards and a slap on the wrist....either way i was just asking the question as i have no idea what breaking an act and committing an offence like this means

Yes the ring is Palladium which since 2009 (i think, can't remember exact) has been included in the hallmarking act which means that any new ring sold through a jewellers such as this one must be hallmarked or they cannot officially state what material it is....he has even written on the documents/valuation that it is palladium which legally he can't do if it's not hallmarked as technically the metal could be anything so the 'illegal' bit (i think) is describing the ring as palladium in product description without the hallmark to prove that it is palladium if that makes sense?

The second opinion jewellers confirmed that it was diamond and palladium etc so i know it's what he said it was in terms of metal and diamond etc (phew! i was half expecting them to tell me it was tin and cubic zirconia)

I also told the second opinion jewellers that it was custom made and he seemed to think that was why he had quoted the £1250 rather than the £950-£1000 they quoted so they even allowed for the fact that he custom made it! but not much i can do about price i suppose, his word against OH's!!

I have a ring left to me in my grandmother's will. It's a full eternity ring with what we believe are diamonds and rubies set in what I've been told is platinum. One of the diamonds is broken though. And there is no hallmark, but also due to it being full eternity, no real room for hallmark. (Actually my platinum e-ring isn't hallmarked either, thinking about it)

Part of me once wanted to find out if it's genuine. Or get it valued. Then I decided not to. The value to me is priceless. Doesn't your engagement ring mean the same to you?

Surely if your ring is one that your OH designed for you, that you like, and that you're never going to want to sell, and was within your OH's budget AND has been valued at at least what you've paid for it, there is no issue???

You shouldn't have to pay to get it hallmarked it's not your responsibility. The jewellers sold it illegally as it hadn't been hallmarked . You could contact the assay office, there is one in London and ask them what you should do. I'd be inclined to do that before you go back to the jewellers.

Old jewellery didn't have to be hallmarked. I'm guessing the OP doesn't want to sell the ring, but what about insurance? If anything happens to it currently it's value cannot be identified because its not stamped.

Hi Mrs*W*2B,

Really sorry to hear how much this has stressed you out...

The first thing I would suggest you do, is contact the jewellers and ask them to get your ring hallmarked. If (and I'm not saying they would) for any reason they refuse to, then you could contact trading standards.

I'm not really sure of the consequences of not hallmarking the ring to be completely honest, but as they are a reputable jewellers, I'm sure they will put the mistake right for you without question. I doubt trading standards would get involved if you couldn't prove you had tried to rectify this with the jewellers in the first instance.

HTH

Laura x

OP - re: the penalties of selling a ring without a hallmark. If the matter was prosecuted and dealt with in the Magistrates' Court the maximum penalty would be a £400 fine. If it went to the Crown Court (which it wouldn't btw, it's not even close to being serious enough for that) the maximum penalty would be two years imprisonment or a fine of up to £5000. You could report the matter to the police / Trading Standards but I'm not sure how much effort they would put into pursuing the matter for the sake of one ring.

That's just my gut instinct though. In 6 years of criminal defence work I've never come across anyone prosecuted under this Act and I suspect it is used for large scale offending only. Check it out with Trading Standards though if you feel the need. Personally I would get it hallmarked by the shop (can you deal with someone other than the guy you don't like?), get it insured and then forget all about it.

One other thing - maybe it's not palladium which might be why it's not hallmarked as such? Can an independent jeweller tell you whether it is or isn't?

To be fair your OH has been a bit daft thinking he could buy a ring for less than half it's "value". I know my OH got a good deal on my ring from a family friend but there was no way it was half price (I never asked how much he paid). You can only expect them to skimp on the labour costs, not the costs of the raw materials. If he was really bothered about the true value of the ring he should have asked which diamond was being used and checked the carat, cut, colour, and clarity approximate value online. It's too late for that now so all you can do is get over it or change it for another ring. Your OH will no doubt be feeling bad about it so I hope it doesn't spoil your engagement and you get the Hallmark sorted out.

Supermarkets do this all the time with wine, saying it's worth £10 and selling for £4 when in actual fact it's normally £4.50. The "value" of something is just as much as someone is willing to pay.

If you are particularly bothered about the fact that he is breaking the law (which I accept he is: either he's not hallmarking when he's supposed to or he's telling you it's palladium when it's not) give the police or Trading Standards a call. As saspip says, realistically nothing will happen unless there have been a string of complaints about him but you can get your concerns lodged in case others do complain in the future.

I agree that the lack of hallmark is an issue. With regard to the rest of it, unless your OH was told the stone would be a certain colour, cut, clarity, weight etc, then yes, if what has been received is substantially less/lesser quality than that which was agreed, I can understand you wanting to take action. It doesn't sound like this is the case though?

When we chose my ER, we paid half the cost that a near identicial ring in Beaverbrooks was selling for. But, the insurance valuation was slightly lower than double the price we paid, so in fact less than what Beaverbrooks were actually selling their ring for. Perhaps the jeweller meant high street value, rather than insurance value?

I still cannot believe you've made such a fuss over this that your OH now "feels bad" about where he got your ring from. Seriously, seriously missing the point of getting engaged if you're getting this het up about where your ring came from and how much money changed hands because of it.

If you're concerned that this bloke is possibly selling rings that are not made of the precious metals he claims (and therefore none of his rings would be hallmarked and all would be sold illegally), then report him to Trading Standards and let them investigate. If he's an otherwise reputable dealer than I'm afraid your personal vendetta against him is meaningless and shouldn't have any bearing at all on your engagement.

I think some people have missunderstood what i have said...i have not 'made' my OH feel bad, he is angry with himself that he was led to believe he was buying a ring worth £2,500 for £900 (stupid or not i don't know) I have not said much about the fact he got it from this guy to him as i already know that OH feels dissapointed in himself for being taken in by this guy....

i have not in anyway pressured my OH into feeling bad about the situation hence coming on here to ask about it rather than discussing it with him.....I thought i could just ask for some innocent advice about what the law is etc and where we stand .... and to be honest was expecting some advice and some people to say maybe it's best if you just leave it etc which some have so thank you!...

I don't think i have 'made a big fuss' over it and it has in no way affected mine and my OH's engagement thank you we are very happy so i don't think its very fair to tell me i'm missing the point of our engagement, this issue has nothing to do with us deciding to marry...I would have said yes to a harribo ring! the way i see it is that i love my ring whether it be 10p or £10,000 its what it means that matters...

i am not going to sell my ring or claim insurance fraud or whatever some of you have suggested but on the other hand (and nothing to do with the engagement itself) I don't feel i can just 'let it go' with this guy as he has lied about it and sold a ring with no hallmark to my OH and i don't feel thats fair....this has no reflection on the meaning of the ring to me....I have admitted that i don't like this guy and that is part of the reason it's bothering me so much but to be made out to be someone who is only fussed over the money etc is totally wrong....its the principal of what he has done and if you don't understand my point then we will have to agree to disagree on that one

I will find out more information elsewhere and then go back to the jewellers about the hallmark, i don't want this to happen to other people!

Yeh i think i have realised valuation wise there is nothing we can do as there is no proof he said it was worth that much!
I am going to try and get them to sort the hallmark themselves first and see what they say

and about the high street value im afraid not, the jewellers i went to (second opinion) said that that valuation is already top wack and that is what you would expect to pay at somewhere like goldsmiths etc so there is noway he could justify £2,500!!

i'm going to see what they say about hallmarking I just don't want him to have my ring again but i have no choice!!

Thanks

Hey

regardless of feelings involved here you definitely need to take action.

1. get your ring insured for the value from the valuation (this is what it would take to get a replica/replacement should it be damaged, lost or stolen).

2. get it hallmarked (seek advice from citizens bureau on how best to do this - it may indeed turn out you need to file a police report saying you had no knowledge it was an offence - to protect yourself should anything arise in the future).

3. disconnect from the sisters ex and forget all about him,

4. start planning your wedding! just bear in mind people might try to rip you off, especially when you mention the W word!

btw my ring is a leo from ernest jones and the valuation came in at half the retail price. I was horrified, but such is the way of the world of retail. Perhaps the sneaky ex was quoting a retail price not a 'cost' price.