"remembering" disasters/tragedies

I think it's because it was televised live and unfolded in front of people, and therefore part of a collective experience/memory. The other events you cite were reported after the event.

I don't know. For some reason I often think of the Zebrugge disaster - I have no connection to it at all, but it doesn't seem to be remembered very 'well'.

I was in Nottingham the weekend of the Hillsborough tragedy, it was utterly dreadful.

I agree with this and also a lot of people knew or know someone that was affected by Hillsborough, where as you don't tend to know or hear of people affected by the tragedies that you mention Nick. I may be ignorant but tbh i'd never heard of the two occasions that you've stated but then this is probably as you say not as mentioned in the press etc as Hillsborough has been.

ETA - ive just googled the two other disasters that you've mentioned and i aren't sure why as you say these aren't remembered, again i was only young at the time perhaps 5 or 6 so about the same age as i would have been at the time of Hillborough, but i really can't remember either two disasters. I think the thing with Hillsborough as to why it sticks in my mind as well as the coverage that it gets is that it was going to a football match that caused the disaster, something that many people do and that many people could have found themselves in a similar situation.

I reckon it's perceived likelihood of something similar happening to oneself.

I was wondering this the other day...noone ever hears of valley parade any more and this was also a footie disaster. i think when it was their 20th anniversary it was only remembered on look north.

do you think maybe hillsborough is considered more tragic as it was more down to human error whereas the others were more accidental if that makes sense?

Probably a combination of reasons but the Justice 96 campaign and the people behind it are incrediably organised and professional so I think they play an important factor in encouraging coverage and maintaining media interest.

Piper Alpha was televised as it was happening, I remember it vividly - probably because my girlfriend at the time was from Aberdeen and her best mate was PR manager for Elf so I got to hear quite a bit about it.

I really don't know Nick, maybe it is the fact so many saw it happen on TV, maybe it is the ages, maybe it is because its football, although in that case Heysel? Bradford? but for me personally its because I did know one of the victims even though we live no where near Liverpool and I know just how angry his family still are that no one can explain why it happened.

It might be because the inquiries following did change a lot about the game and the way its controlled?

Does that make sense at all? I usually don't when I'm emotional about things so i won't be offended.

I don't know NickJ - last year was the 20th anniversary of Piper Alpha and it was discussed in the papers/BBC news. I'm not one for big memorials but I'll never forget that night, wondering why so many helicopters were going out, finding out the next morning, knowing people at school who'd lost relatives...

And the Marchionesse was discussed last year - I heard an interview with Lawrence Dallaglio who lost his sister. I think there was some call for further investigation or something.

I think the lack of anyone taking responsibility and the football side of it have held Hillsborough in the news but to be fair, you only usually see mentions on anniversaries. Piper Alpha is probably in the memory of anyone connected to Aberdeen or the oil industry in the 80s but football is so big, so many more people can look at Hillsboroough or Bradford or Hysel. Interesting that Ibrox has had two fatal collapses and no one mentions it though.

Without wishing to distract from todays events, I remember the Bradford City football disaster. This was only three years before Hillsborough and around 50 died. I recall the news at the time which reported that the stand effectively turned in to a grill. The image that sticks with me from this disaster was of a policeman and a punk with mohican standing side by side dragging people out of the fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/11/newsid_2523000/2523561.stm

Peter

I think all of the reasons people mention on this thread have their part to play. Also, I think people find it much more difficult to even think about disasters that were no-ones fault, or the fault of a very simple mistake, than disasters where the deliberate actions or (perceived) wilful negligence of a group of people, especially if those people are supposed to be protecting the public. There's simply much more to be said about the latter type of event, the former type seems completely incomprehensible as there's no real way to apportion any blame. Who's ever heard of the Bethnal Green disaster which killed 170-odd people (I didn't until a programme on R4 a few weeks ago)?

The company who used to do the fire officer training for my company used the Bradford disaster as an example of how fire spreads. I've had to sit through the footage umpteen times and it never fails to make me sick to the stomach. Horrific, just horrific.

The Marchioness still gets "local" coverage here in London.

I guess its often a question of proximity

People crushed during WWII? Trying to get in or out of tube station being used as a bomb shelter?

I heard about that a few years ago - I think it was also R4 though.

Was it? I only remember hearing about it the next day, but I was only little then. It's still a bit different re: media coverage. Piper Alpha would have been filmed *because* of the disaster, whereas Hillsborough was unexpected and unfolded on what was to be a live TV event anyway, iyswim.

It's strange the way that so many people have a connection to Hillsborough. My uncle was in the Notts end, my school English teacher in the Liverpool end. Two people from my local were killed in it. I guess many others have similar stories, especially if they live in the relevant areas.

God yes it certainly was. And for quite a long period of time too, as the fire burned for so long before Red Adair and his team were able to extinguish it. It was bloody horrible, the stuff of nightmares really. I remember it as if it was yesterday too. Of course I am in Scotland and it got extensive news coverage here, not only at the time but also afterwards in terms of the public inquiry. There was also quite a lot of coverage on the normal news programmes, and a separate TV documentary, last year around the 20th anniversary.

As to why Hillsborough seems to be remembered more - I think other disasters, like Lockerbie are too - I think it's maybe because the people affected are still so vocal about them, and have kept them in the public eye. And although there has been extensive coverage of other disasters, there wasn't the same element of watching it all unfold live as there was with Hillsborough.

hm interesting

Everybody I work with here in London knows about Valley Parade.

Our safety section uses the footage at every new starter induction to highlight how fast fires spread. I guess the best tribute is making sure it doesn't happen again.

I think it's the witness element of it. It's hard to find exact figures, but the capacity of the ground was at least 16,000. It's clear it was full over that capacity, and there were also those outside that didn't get in, and those watching on TV. So many people know someone who was there - as I said yesterday the son of one of my mum's friends was in the affected stand with friends. I was 9 at the time and he was around 20 so of course I thought he was very cool! I remember my mum telling us that he was there after the event and it makes it seem so much more real to have had a connection with it.

There was a massive anniversary remembrance for the Munich air disaster last year which was fewer victims but again, it was high profile and of course in that case it was 'celebrities' of the time. I think the big anniversaries of these things will always bring back memories.

Having just written on the other thread about my H being at Hillsborough, one of my best friends lost her father on the Herald of Free Enterprise. I know I sound like a disaster groupie now!

Because of having this involvement I suppose I notice when Zebrugge is mentioned, and to me it seems like it still gets mentioned fairly frequently.

Although having said that football is a major part of 40 odd weeks of the year, and things like Hillsborough are still happening, just look at the Ivory Coast game a few weeks back, so maybe it is more in the public conciousness.

absolutely.

i certainly remember valley parade, partly because it was in bradford, but also because i have a bit of a phobia of fire. for the same reason i also remember kings cross like it was yesterday. both gave me nightmares.

I think it's got a lot to do with the work that is done to keep the incident in the public eye- be it through campaigning for justice for whatever end, or because it's incredibly tragic involving younger people or families or something a bit more newsworthy. I know that last one is a bit cynical but I think it's true.

It's also personal attachment. For example, the Manchester Airport tragedy I remember because we were in Paxos, and some friends of friends who were coming out for a holiday didn't turn up - I remember our friends saying they must have been on that flight and as they were heavy smokers wouldn't have stood a chance as the smoking section of the plane was destroyed. Hysel stadium happened on my birthday - I remember watching the coverage just before going to spend the night in the garden in my new tent, Hillsborough I have an attachment to and so on.

I know about the Bethnal Green disaster as my greatgrandparents were killed in it ☹️

My grandma over night was left with 5 siblings to look after (she was aged 16 or so) and when she had dementia she would sit and cry recounting the story

so so sad

Another reason Hillsborough in particular is well remembered is the media furore in the aftermath.

WSS

I think perhaps people remember things that happen to ordinary people doing ordinary things. PA was a dangerous place to work and people knew the possibility of what could happen (although it doesn't make it any less of a disaster) but things like Lockerbie, Dunblane (the footage of which still haunts me and I don't think I'll ever forget that day) and Hillsborough amongst others were all just people going about their daily lives. I really do think that's why they are seen as more shocking and in turn stay in the front of our minds.

There was a time when a newsflash made everyone gulp and instantlty watch as it always meant something bad had happened. I vividly remember the news flash for all these things (particularly PA, it was a saturday morning, wasn't it? and dunblane too as we had been sent home from school as the boiler had burst, so I sat alone all day, aged 15 and watching the news) and I think it becomes ingrained in our memories.

Living in Liverpool, Hillsborough is mentioned all the time. Everyone knew someone who was there that day and I think that keeps the memory alive. Liverpool will come to a standstill this afternoon, and others around the country will stand and think of something similar of there but for the grace of god it wasn't their dad/brother/sister/uncle/son/daughter who died just because they went to a football game.

I have to say I don't remember much about Hillsborough when it happened, certainly not in an 'I can remember where I was' kind of way. I was in my last year at uni, studying for my finals, no tv in the flat, supremely disinterested in most current affairs and especially anything football-related so it rather passed me by. I learned more about it the following year when I was living in Sheffield for a while and there was news coverage as the anniversary approached.

Piper Alpha had a far greater impact on me because I'd been living in Aberdeen for three years by then and the sense of shock and loss just reverberated throughout the city. The grief was palpable. Everyone was talking about it, a lot of people knew families who were affected (including me although I didn't know it at the time) and you couldn't escape the local news coverage.

I do think you also take more notice of the disasters where you think 'there but for the grace of God go I'. The Herald of Free Enterprise images are ingrained in my memory because my parents lived in Kent back then and we were making a lot of day trips over to France. The first few trips after that were a little tense even though I knew the checks would be stringent after Zeebrugge.

I have to say I don't really remember hillsbourgh either. I was 8 or 9 at the time, I think.

I do remember the folure about doing away with standing terraces though.

The marchioness disaster stayed in my head for soem time though- I had never expected so many people could die in a river in central London. You just assume you'd swim to the bank or be rescued quickly.

I do wonder why some events are remembered and others aren't quite a lot actually. You walk around the tube network and there are memorials for things which you don't hear much about- the kings cross fire, the Moorgate train crash.

I've never really "got" the attention the titantic gets- I mean, yes it was a new super boat and a lot of people died- but I don't feel its as important as some clearly do.

Ones that do stick in my mind - Kings Cross fire - neighbour at the time was a train driver in the tunnel, I remember his Wife in our house in a panic

Bishopsgate Bomb , as it's MrJMP's birthday & we had gone back up to the City to get his car , I ran into work (HongKong Bank) to get a bag I'd left & his car keys, got into the car in the basement & drove out the carpark. We got as far as London Wall & felt the boom & just st in the car with paper raining down.

Tenerife air crash & Las palmas airport bombing - My Gran Parents were at Las Palmas waiting to board their flight when the bomb went off , Mum got a call from them & put on the news , it then came on about the 2 planes that had crashed in tenerife.

Harrods bomb - we were on the 4th floor visiting Father Christmas at the time , I was 10. I said to my Dad once that why did we always seem to be in London when bombs & sieges were going off - to this day I can't go iin a basement loo along Oxford Street.

Waco is another, I remember watching this on Sky.

I think we also remember things which are local to us or things we have a connection to. PA, Dunblane and Lockerbie are the things I remember most with living in Scotland, plis Hillsborough as I knew someone there and particularly now with my IL/local connection.

People in London will marchioness and the tube station disaster, people in Manchester will remember the plane crash.

I know someone who died in the Nova Scotia Swissair crash in 1998 (strangely enough he was also the person I knew at hillsborough, along with his brother) and always remember that but others in the UK will probably have forgotten it ever happened.

Its a hard thing really - on one hand of course things like this are going to be remembered because it affected so many people but on the other hand it certainly does feel like some disasters are "more important" than others (that doesn't sound right but I hope you can understand what I mean) because of who they happen to. I often wonder if the Hillsborough disaster occured during Macclesfield vs Darlington would it get teh same media attention.

My Dad was at Valley Parade on the day of the fire. We saw the smoke over the houses and though a warehouse was on fire. We saw on the news that it was Valley Parade was a blaze - and it was the stand my dad was in. He was late home. It was the longest hours of our lives - I was only 5 but I remember sitting watching the clock tick by. He finally came home 3 hours later - he was so red hot it wasn't possible to touch him. And he stank - of smoke and burning and god awful things.

Horrendous.

I guess like Sophie says the fear is of something happening to you in like for like situations.

I remember the Herald of Free Enterrprise, because my Dad worked for Townsend Torreson and I remember him getting the call in the evening to get the next ship out to bring home surviviers. I just remember him answering the phone, then saying 'Oh dear' and his voice changing when he said it and leaving the house really quickly without explaining what was happening.

Although I don't have any connection with the Kings Cross fire, I still get the shivers whenever I go through that station. I can't help thinking about it and all those people that died.

Dunblaine too, although there is no connection, I was a student at the time and heard the news as it came in. And I know this sounds rubbish, but the day before I had watched the news and it was obviously a slow news day, scrapping around for stories, and I had said, 'let's hope something more interesting happens tomorrow'. I still feel bad about saying that, even though it is completely illogical.

The common theme running through the thread is that most posters knew someone who has been affected by a disaster or tragedies.

I haven't heard of quite a few events mentioned in the thread, maybe an age thing or just not knowing anyone involved in it.

However I do remember alot of disasters/tragedies that are military related as I've known people and obviously it's something close to home, something I can relate to.

My 2p.