a question for non-Christians

R-A, would you mind? It's a point that's been made, and dealt with, on a different forum and the person concerned has already had a proper flaming for it!

But for the wider point, I'm horrified that someone can't take a legal course of action because the doctor involved didn't want them to. Fine for individuals to opt out of doing those procedures of course, but surely they have to refer to someone who can help? That's craziness.

That's what I thought too, hazel. But it appears people are openly interpreting the GMC's guidance in different ways. I'm not sure how much of this particular newsletter I am allowed to quote in 'public' (but it's from a mainstream publication that most doctors receive). However, the gist fo it that there are a lot of (mainly Catholic) Drs who are saying 'we will not refer you but you can go and find another doctor yourself if you want'. This is particularly detrimental in the case of TOPs where there is a time imperitive. Some people believe this contradicts the guidance but obviously not the group of doctors queuing to openly talk to a widely read publication about it!

I'm reading the guidance myself now (which is public I believe) so will post more detail shortly if you're interested.

Right, here's the relevant GMC guidance:

1. Patients may ask you to perform, advise on, or refer them for a treatment or procedure which is not prohibited by law or statutory code of practice in the country where you work, but to which you have a conscientious objection. In such cases you must tell patients of their right to see another doctor with whom they can discuss their situation and ensure that they have sufficient information to exercise that right. In deciding whether the patient has sufficient information, you must explore with the patient what information they might already have, or need.
   
   
2. In the circumstances described in paragraph 21, if the patient cannot readily make their own arrangements to see another doctor you must ensure that arrangements are made, without delay, for another doctor to take over their care. You must not obstruct patients from accessing services or leave them with nowhere to turn. Whatever your personal beliefs may be about the procedure in question, you must be respectful of the patient’s dignity and views.
   
   
3. You must be open with patients - both in person and in printed materials such as practice leaflets - about any treatments or procedures which you choose not to provide or arrange because of a conscientious objection, but which are not otherwise prohibited.

TBH it's a lot woolier than I realised. I do think it should be an obligation to refer on.

ETA the full guidance is here: https://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/ethical_guidance/personal_beliefs/personal_beliefs.asp

Ooh, that is woolly, isn't it? "sufficient information" can mean anything after all. It's almost as broad as "medical need" ?

The sufficient information is woolly but it does say very clearly that they *must* tell patients of their right to see another doctor.

Yes, they have to tell them. I'm not sure that goes far enough though - there is no obligation for GP practices to have a certain number of Docs who will refer for TOPs, indeed the newsletter article had an example of a whole practice run on 'Christian principles' where none of the Docs gave contraception/referred for TOPs/gave the morning after pill (even when on call covering the whole local area). There are also single handed practices. So actually 'arranging to see another Doctor' may well mean having to register as a temp patient at another practice: often easier said than done. An obligation to make a direct referral would be more in keeping with the patient's best interests imho.

hm, me too. i d also say not to bother as i m beyond redemption ?. in fact this reminds me of a (black) umour situation when i was in hospital awaiting surgery. i was shitting myself, and doing anything to try to alleviate that, and when the senior ICU nurse came and and asked me what religion i was, i said jehovahs witness. she stopped writing, then looked up with wide eyes, and i was laughing. she then said "well if youre a christian you d better thank god i m not your surgeon otherwise i might just take a few things out and not put them back" ?