Do you wear a red poppy?

well, where to begin? of course remembrance day is "militarised", its about military losses. and any fly past or parada is a show of respect, its not a show of power. and there ARE civilian widows/widowers there, its that the focus is not on them, and understandably so, since when one chooses to join the forces, there is of course a risk of death or injury. its the respect which goes hand in hand with that choice a person makes.

as for "MPs wear poppies whilst planning the next one", well thats simply ridiculous. with the exception of Iraq, wars are not "planned", its a last resort response to a number of other events, and i m absolutely sure that no MP ever WANTS to choose the war option. Iraq is different - the information given to Parliament was wrong, pure and simple. in terms of "that detracts from their symbolism" - i dont see how or why you feel that way, forces personnel may still lose their lives, and you are effectively turning your nose up at those people and their families because of a policy decision you may not agree with, and thats insulting to those people.

The only reason they appeared (and why it took so long) was because the RBL were asked to print 'no more war' in the middle of the poppies, and refused.

As far as I know the red poppy wasn't an instrumental part of winning WW2 but do correct me if I've missed out on a vital history lesson.

As I've mentioned before I am not a Quaker. I'm also not a member of the PPU.

I thought this was an interesting point, but TBH I don't agree. I don't think the whiteness is an additional statement for most people but rather a qualification ("I'm remembering the dead but...")

I find white poppies extremely annoying and borderline offensive. Is it not possible for people to make a simple statement about remembering those who have died in war without attaching a lecture to it? There's something incredibly unpleasant about a statement that implicitly says, "I'm sorry you died in the trenches, chaps, but really you oughtn't to have been there- war's wrong, you know?", "I'm sorry your son died in Afghanistan, Mrs Jones, but I can't approve of his being there at all- don't you know war's not right?", as if those who have personally suffered think it's a walk in the park.

I also find it hard to believe that everyone you see with a white poppy is a pacifist- I think many of them are simply trying to make a statement that they don't like war, which is something else entirely and implies that those with red poppies somehow see things differently- that they do like war- which is obviously wrong.

Finally, I have very little time for pacifism full stop but a grudging respect for those who are genuine pacifists, as holding such an uncompromising position demands a strong stomach. However (and I don't include you in this, R-A) I suspect that a lot of people who call themselves pacifists are, once again, simply attempting to say that they don't like war and thinking that pacifism is the sort of nice, fluffy position that nice fluffy people like them naturally hold. In fact there is nothing remotely nice or fluffy about pacifism- it's simply grimly clinging on to one principle as every other principle goes to the wall. A perfectly tenable and valid position, but not one to be insipidly smug about.

So I'm not a fan of white poppies, really ?

THE RBL didn't agree? Shocking.

Pledging 'No More War' would likely have reduced Britain's options in opposing Blitzkreig though.

You did mention that you were brought up Quaker, presumably then some one/more of your antecedants were Quaker.... They'd have been unlikely to hold those views/live had the Greater germany come to be. So the outlook for you wouldn't have been that hot.

To clarify- that wasn't all aimed at you, Ms Scarlett, you just inspired my opening sentence.

I wear one - I was working on a British Forces camp in Germany this weekend and wore one along with the majority (but not all) of the people living/working on that camp. I forgot I had it on when I left the camp and had several Germans ask me what it was for and why I was wearing it.

I wear it as a sign of respect. And particularly when surrounded by currently serving forces who have recently returned from Iraq/Afghanistan, as a sign of remembrance.

thats interesting. i d thought that it was a universally recognised symbol (in europe at least)

Knownowt, you totally wrote everything I've been trying to say in a much better way than I've managed. Great post.

Nick, I think you have got to the very heart of why I feel uneasy about it. I know this is a controversial opinion but I am not sure why I have to show 'respect' in a defined way towards people because of the job they have chosen to do. Yes, it's dangerous, yes, it may be vitally important for safety to have an armed forces, BUT you could say the same about firemen, or ambulance crews or anyone else who puts their safety on the line every day for their job.

We don't have a firemen day with blazing firetrucks and lapel pins... why?

I think you give MPs too much credit. There is, in my opinion, far more they could and should be doing to promote peaceful conflict resolution worldwide.

Yes I did too - but apparently not - unless I was unlucky enough to come across particularly uneducated Germans ! I was surprised to be asked and wasnt quite sure what to say when the first person asked me. Settled on explaining it was to remember servicemen/women who had lost their life in conflicts around the world.

I couldn't agree more with this. An anti-war stance and pacifism are nowhere near the same thing. Genuine pacifism is, quite frankly, mind-bogglingly mad, imo. ?

Bit like the statement about why Remembrance is observed more widely than other charitable causes, think about it and I'm sure you'll realise the answer.

There's no need to be facetious - the red poppy wasn't an instrumentla part of WW1 - it was taken as a symbol because so many thousands, if not millions died in the poppy fields during WW1, which I'm sure you already know.

Yes, I buy and wear them every year, my nearly 3 year old knows that they are sold to support people who have given or risked all they have to keep us safe, and worn to show that we're grateful. This year he is wearing one too.

If we're going to have another Bank Holiday in the UK I presonally believe it should be to commemorate Remembrance Day. Maybe that would go some way to combat the one comment on this thread that has really annoyed me: "It wouldn't occur to me to wear one".

To me, that is either ignorant or selfish. (Not saying that about not wearing, but about not even thinking about it. TBH, if it's ignorance then it needs to be addressed, and it it's anything else then I'm frankly disgusted.

I completely agree with everything you've written about pacifism, KN (and also suspect many people who descibe themselves as such are not actually pacifists in the true sense - not aimed at you, R-A). I suppose I assume that, because the white poppy is a poppy rather than a dove or some other symbol, it's intended to serve the same purpose as a red poppy in terms of rememberance and respect but with an additional message of pacifism. I could well be wrong on an empirical level about that, though.

yes, but with respect to firemen, if a building burns down there is no threat to ones freedom. and yes, forces personnel choose to do the job, with the full knowlege that they may have to go into battle, and what that entails. however, for me, that choice is the key, and the reason why personnel killed in the line of duty should be remembered and revered. i have never understood why the british population in general does not afford the same courtesys to forces personnel in pubic than the american people. in the US, its a given that personnel travel in uniform, and they receive perks in the travel industry. here it seems that if a guy is spotted walking down the road in uniform, he is someone to be sneered at, and turned away from bars and hotels etc. this doesnt apply to everyone of course.

with your last statement you assume that western logic is applied across the world - it isnt. middle eastern fundamentalists for example work on a totally different set of values and logic parameters, and as such, western logic cannot be applied. plus, sometimes, sadly force is the only way.

I wear a red poppy and do so every year for all the reasons already stated. TBH until this thread I didn't even know white poppies existed so I don't know whether that says something about the level of take up.

I have been asked about my poppy before in Brussels and also last year in New York I was stopped a couple of times by shop assistants. I had also thought it was pretty universal, apparently not.

Yes I wear a poppy and buy one if not 1/2 a dozen as I lose them every year!

I have never thought about it being religious all colours and creeds have fought in all the wars.

I was in town the other day and there was a ceremony going on.

I caught this that always gets me and certainly is food for thought.

'For our tomorrow's they gave their today's'

Its a mark of showing respect for all who died in war not just military but obvioualy these were the biggest losses. (And I mean all wars not just WW1 and WW2 but the Falklands - N Ireland -Iraq and Afghanistan and plenty of others I am sure going on in the world.

We went all round Ypres and surrounding areas when I was at school - take a trip it might make you think. It had a huge impact on me.

Isn't there a piece of info that since before WW1 to date there have only been 7 minutes of global peace. Sorry but peace is a nice ideal and that is what it is an ideal!

Nobody's saying you have to show respect in a defined way. The soldiers who fought in the world wars didn't chose to do that job though did they? What about conscription and national service?

I think it's all about respect and acknowledging exactly what these people have done for us. Seeing the old soldiers with their medals is very humbling.

Because 'without it we'd all be speaking German'?? Undoubtably our lives would be very different without world war 2. But armistice day is meant to be remembering the dead and injured, not the outcome. Or we'd be pretty embarassed as a nation at our current military outcomes. Armistice day, as has been heavily pointed out on this thread, is about ALL wars that have been fought by our esteemed nation, as unpalatable as they may be. It is not just a VE day celebration. You can't have your cake and eat it, only remembering and glorifying the 'good' wars in which there was a positive outcome.

I am afraid I cannot agree with the fact that it's OK - and in fact almost compulsory - to pay for old ex servicemen and women to stay in nursing homes, but it is not OK for me to wear my NSPCC 'stop child abuse' badge.

Have you not heard of conscription? Where I grew up (North Wales) virtually entire villages were wiped out of their young men.

I know firemen have dangerous jobs but on a par?......not really.

I do find your statement I've quoted above offensive.

Who says you can't wear your NSPCC badge? I don't think that's what anyone is talking about, are they? I defend your right to wear whatever lapel badge you choose.

R-A - are you deliberately missing the point?

Armistice Day or Remembrance Sunday is not about remembering the wars - it's about remembering all the people who have lost their life/given service/become injured through serving their country during military activity/war.

It's not a VE day celebration - that's June 6th. The 11th day of the 11th hour of the 11th month is to remember the day the fighting stopped in WW1!

Armistice Day is the anniversary of the symbolic end of World War I on 11 November 1918. It commemorates the armistice signed between the Allies and Germany at Compiègne, France, for the cessation of hostilities on the Western Front, which took effect at eleven o'clock in the morning - the "eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month." While this official date to mark the end of the war reflects the ceasefire on the Western Front, hostilities continued in other regions, especially across the former Russian Empire and in parts of the old Ottoman Empire.

The date was a national holiday in many of allied nations to allow people to commemorate those members of the armed forces who were killed during war. This day in Poland is national day (also a public holiday) called Polish Independence Day. After World War II, it was changed to Veterans Day in the United States and to Remembrance Day in the British Commonwealth of Nations. Armistice Day is an official holiday in France. It is also an official holiday in Belgium, known also as the day of peace in the Flanders Fields.

In many parts of the world people take a two minute moment of silence at 11:00 a.m. as a sign of respect for the roughly eight million who died in the war, as suggested by Edward George Honey in a letter to a British newspaper although Wellesley Tudor Pole established two ceremonial periods of remembrance based on events in 1917.[1][2] In Germany however, it coincides with the official beginning of the carnival season.

Beginning in 1939 the two-minute silence was moved to the Sunday nearest 11 November in order not to interfere with wartime production should 11 November fall on a weekday. Since the 1990s a growing number of people have observed a two-minute silence on 11 November, resulting in both Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday being commemorated formally in the UK (although in 2007 they fell on the same day).

11 November 2008 will be the 90th anniversary of Armistice Day.

Have I missed something? Who says it's not okay for you to wear your NSPCC badge?

i m having trouble deciding whether youre being deliberately inflammatory, or just ignorant. armistice day is neither about all wars, nor about VE day - i suggest you look it up.

But that is exactly what this thread is all about. I have utmost respect for anyone who has a job which compromises their safety for the good of others, including the forces and all the other jobs where people do so.

Why should I show that 'respect' in a way that someone else tells me to, on a certain day?

For whoever suggested I visit the battle sites, I've just come back from Normandy, thanks. As I said previously, I probably spend more time talking and thinking about war and conflict than the vast majority of the population do.

I’ll always wear a poppy and I’ll always observe two minutes of silence, its not saying that I agree with all the actions of this country and all of its reason for going to war but I respect the men and women who gave there lives for us all in the hope for a better future, pacifist’s included.

And actually, you're talking out of your proverbial! The British Legion are in the process of closing down homes as they can't afford to keep them running. My H's nan is in the only home in Wales and up until the end of August it was in danger of being closed - it has a temporary reprieve. She is 96 yrs old and her family live in rural wales and they were planning on sending her to Devon - the next nearest home! My H's Dad is in his mid 70s and fairly frail - he can just about drive the 40 mile round trip to visit his Mum every other day but Devon is out of the question.

There is no compulsory funding.

You are becoming very offensive here - I suggest you read up on what you're talking about so you don't look like an ill-informed, judgemental idiot!

But why not? I'm sure they'd rather not need our help but surely you can't begrudge them recognition for living through suffering that most of us will never experience? Someone who lived and fought in the WW1 trenches deserves more than we can give them IMO.

NSPCC is a worthy charity too but it's different. It's fine to wear your badge, I support them too.

Yes, every year without fail, my grandfather also lays a wreath down in the remembrance (sp?) every year and i attend with him.

It would feel strange not wearing one for me.

R-A, I know for a fact that you are an extremely intelligent person, so I can only assume that you have a blind spot where this issue is concerned. I'm really struggling to make sense of the examples you are giving, because they are not remotely analagous.

No-one suggested you visit the battle sites, they suggested you actually go and attend the Rememberence Day parade as you seemed to be of the misconception that it was very 'show offy' about military power or some words to that effect. Also you said that civilians and families weren't represented, which someone said is just not the case.