Have we talked about the praying nurse?

I thought this happened a while ago? I certianly remember a thread along these lines. I think it sounds quite mad to suspend someone to offer to say a prayer. However, she has been warned rpeviously about pushing her beliefs on others, so maybe there's more that has happened than is being immediately reported. Maybe she was warned that another incident would mean suspension, and to keep her beliefs to herself?

L
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She's been reinstated.

WLS seems very heavy handed on the face of it

There are ways of doing it and ways of frightening people to death, imo. I once worked with a consultant who offered to pray for people and I used to go back afterwards to tell them he was like that with everyone and they weren't dying!

I have offered to pray for patients, more in my youth, when they had declared their own Christian faith, esp in terminal care situations. I can't think how many years it's been since I've done it because I see myself as their dr and my job to do medicine well; though I pray for many of them afterwards privately.

But to get someone suspended is ridiculous, imo. I might as well complain every time someone doesn't offer to pray for me on the grounds that they are pressing athiesm on me ?

If people feel the need to offer to pray for me I would be pleased that they bothered to care and if I disagreed with the premise behind their prayer I would tell them it was a kind thought but no thanks. Simple enough.

HL: I think there was a thread about a Hitcher having it happen to them/their family? I don't think it was a news story then. This story is from 2nd Feb. Maybe the same case and it's only just got to the press.

Yep, she was reinstated on Thurs IIRC.

I think it was the right thing to do for her to be suspended. But I'm pretty clear about the lines of separation between my personal life and my professional life.

I also don't get why she can't just pray for her privately without bringing it up in conversation if she really wanted to pray for her?

Hmmm...good point about why she had to ask - is there some reason you'd need permission to pray for someone else? I mean, if they don't believe and you do might you not pray for them anyway?

L
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I think that's the key difference.

I'd be offended and think it was inappropriate tbh. It would change how I percieved that health professional tbh, too.

I like the bit in the article "She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer."

Yea, cause UTIs never get better in 'a few days' anyway, do they ?

I don't think it's about permission in that you wouldn't pray for someone who doesn't believe, so much as telling them (if they believe in prayer) might make them feel more positive.

I believe some people would be very offended if they felt someone was praying for them.

I too would wonder if there was something more to the story. There is, regardless of religious intent, the implication that needing a prayer may mean you are seriously ill/more ill than you thought (I think Zoay pointed this out) and I think that is potentially far more damaging to the patient than having a belief 'forced' upon them.

Prayer is quite universal through all religions, no? Surely the only religious offense it might cause is to athiests and we rarely see any sympathy for them in the media ?

Hmmm, interesting. Would any of you who are religious be offended by being prayed for by someone of a different religion?

I think I'd mind more if a health professional brought it into conversation than if they just wanted to pray for me in private. If you don't believe in God or prayer, I don't see how you can be offended by someone praying in private for you. My mother is a priest in training, and I couldn't give a monkey's wotsit if she wants to waste her time praying for me.

However, I would be offended by someone who I feel should be impartial and professional bringing their personal life into a consulation. It might well make me less likely to share my problems (especially regarding something sens, such as TOP)

I would definitely be thinking 'I am dying' if someone offered to pray for me

L
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If a nurse or gp, or consultant wants to pray for anyone, thats their business, but they should not vocalise it unless there are completly sure that the patient is a believer.

Why would it be acceptable in any other profession or circumstance? it wouldnt. its simply not appropriate to start talking about prayers. Imagine if a plumber came round to fix your boiler and he undertook a temporary repair and said "i shall pray to god that the repair works" you d be totally freaked out, it would be weird.

mind you, having said that, its so bloody hard to even get a plumber that i might consider praying for one to come, even though i m a non believer ?

Not at all. I don't think this situation was offering to pray in a consultation but at the end. I still dont know that it's necessarily appropriate but on the face of it it does seem like a massively heavy handed approach.The woman who complained even said that she didn't mind but someone else might,

It wasn't a one-off thing

"Petrie said she had been reprimanded over her faith before, in October, when she gave a homemade prayer card to an elderly patient."

Also: it may have been at the end of this particular consultation/visit, but if she's working as a district nurse dressing wounds, she'll be going into this woman's house on a regular basis. Therefore it's - to me - undermining the ongoing professional relationship.

If she's been warned about it before then the suspension makes more sense then.

I agree it seems heavy handed to suspend her immediately. i d have thought a quiet word would have sufficed. still, whatever way you look at it, its totally innapropriate and highly unprofessional.

TBH - would not care if she did a whole rain dance prayer, as long as the care she provided did not fall below the expected standard of a medical professional.

Agree that her actions were inappropriate but the reaction disproportionate. Mostly I am PMSL at Nick's analogy. I would love to hear a mechanic say: "I will pray for the recovery of your cylinder head gasket" or whatever. ?

I just don't see the need for her to vocalise her thoughts - I'm sure a good many people have prayed for me - what I don't know and all that ?

I suspect there is more to this than we know given the seemingly heavy handed nature of the discipline.

It is an interesting point though about people of other religions "praying" for you - I mean I'm sure some Christians would be offended if I, as a pagan, offered to do some sort of incantation for them

It wasn't 'suspending her immediately' though. If you read the article (and my earlier post ?) she had been disciplined before for giving out homemade prayer cards to elderly people.

"Petrie said she had been reprimanded over her faith before, in October, when she gave a homemade prayer card to an elderly patient.

She said: "He was delighted with it, but his carer was not."

I think you picked a quote out of the story to show your point, but forgot the rest. I honestly wouldn't give a crap if someone wanted to pray for me or not, or, whether they asked for "permission" or not. Surely if you are not happy about someone asking to pray for you, just say No thanks, and end of story. Why there always has to be a big fuss about it, I will never know. To me, it's the same thing as someone saying God bless, or similar when you do something for them. Imagine having to lodge a complaint everytime someone said that? Totally OTT

I picked out the quote to show that it wasn't the first instance (as some people thought she should have had a verbal warning before being suspended: which she did).

I don't think a health professional saying 'God Bless' would be particularly appropriate either tbh.

Do you think it should be OK for doctors too? I work in sexual health, and if I started sprouting off about my religious beliefs I'm pretty sure people would be reticent to tell me about their sex lives/adultery/previous terminations/wish for a termination. For this reason alone, I strongly believe that it's absolutely essential for health professionals to keep their private beliefs private.

That does put rather a different slant on it actually. If the patient was happy about it then I'm not sure the carer has the right to intervene

Presumably though you're perfectly able to voice your opinion or have the confidence to do so. Forcing your beliefs on others may be offensive without you even realising. Either way, it's inappropriate.

Fine, but if you're going to quote to prove your point, the whole quote is relevant, not just the part that suits you.

I'm not necessarily talking only about doctors, nurses, etc but anyone. If we had to walk around being offended by everything that everyone says (although I do think that already happens as per idiotic "PC guidelines"), what sad individuals we'd all be. I've had cab drivers say God Bless as I got out the cab and left them a tip, what do you suggest I do, complain to the taxi firm? I picked up an old ladies walking stick on the bus the other day as she was struggling to bend down to get it and she said God bless, should I have put it back on the floor because I am a non believer? And to be honest R-A, however you deal with your patients is of no concern to me. Thats how YOU deal with them. Thank god [sic] that not all health care workers are the same, I'd rather have someone offer me a prayer / say god bless than some of the snarly "professionals" I've had dealings with.

Hazel - exactly. My first thought when I read that article was what the hell does it have to do with the carer?

So you want me to copy and paste the entire Guardian article? ?

I don't think it's in any way comparable to cab drivers.They can do whatever they like. If I don't want to use their cab firm again, I won't. People don't have that option with the NHS.

It's vitally important for people's health for them to be able to talk to me honestly and openly about any problems they have, which means I go out of my way to appear as non-judgemental as possible - which for me absolutely includes not talking about religion.

I don't think it's got anything to do with people being 'snarly'. Are people either religious or snarly ??

Are you going to respond to BGB's point?

Come off it - your quote was definitely misleading. A newspaper would get in trouble for that.

With specific regard to the person whose carer complained, we have no idea of the circs. The patient could have volunteered info about faith in which case not necc inappropriate.

I disagree Hazel, my point was simply that this was not her first 'offence'.

FWIW I don't agree with the carer complaining either.

I'm not really bothered about the ins and outs of this particular case tbh, I was just hoping for an interesting debate about the rights and wrongs of healthcare professionals expressing religious views to patients during consultations.

But the fact that it was not the patient complaining is relevant to that! ANd this case is relevant to a wider discussion of the rights and wrongs of healthcare professionals expressing religious views to patients during consultatinos.

I remember posting about this issue - not this case - a while ago after a big old row on a midwifery forum about whether it's OK to offer to pray for women in childbirth. I realise I'm probably up at the "PC gone mad" end of the spectrum, but I was pretty horrified. Given that this particular aspiring health professional also wanted to know how far she could go in praying with women having terminations to make them change their minds ?

It's totally inappropriate in a setting where a health professional and a patient have an inherently unequal relationship. The HP is supposed to be the one who has the answers, who has experience of the situation and is acting professionally. Evangelising isn't really part of that, I don't think, when you're playing on the fact that the patient is relying on you anyway.

Also "I'll pray for you" does sound a bit like someone saying they've got nothing else to suggest.