Interesting BBC article on 'workless households'

I read it earlier, and I do feel for families in these sort of circumstances, I don't know what the answer is for people in this situation, although I have less sympathy for the daughter when she says things like...

"All my pals are looking for work as well. But it's not that easy to get a job straightaway, you've got to write out your CV and everything and then hand it in to places."

Indeed. I wonder how you dig yourself out of that trap as she's pretty much making the same mistakes as her mother. You can see the signs in the younger children as well (truancy etc.)

that did make me choke a bit Sah - but i am thinking about maybe going back to work part-time and have to face doing a CV - i have done them before and have plenty of experience and exams to put on it - but i have to say it is still daunting

it must be incredibly hard to do in that situation -especially if you think it is a waste of time anyway

i dont get the mother's attitude though - she will work if someone 'gives' her a job - but also wont make any effort at all

they may be in an awful situation and they certainly seem to have been dealt some very hard blows - but it doesnt really seem fair that it is 'ok' for whole families to rely entirely on other people - and also bring more babies into the equation

i am torn between trying to be sympathetic and being really angry that there are people working really hard and struggling and getting no help at all

It's very sad and you can see how lots of small things have led to their family situation.

But what's really sad is the 16-year-old saying:

"Hopefully in five years time I'll have a big fancy house, if I get the right job."

She doesn't have any qualifications or job experience, and she's got a baby for whom childcare (presuming her mum gets a job and doesn't babysit) will wipe out minimum wage earnings, let alone any upkeep of her and the child.

The "right job" is never going to happen unless she turns her life around completely and she really doesn't sound like she has the knowledge or skills or support to do that.

And she looks so ill in the "next generation" pic - what kind of life does a 16 year old have to give her big black rimmed eyes and grey skin?

I feel quite ill thinking about the opportunities her child will miss out on.

Absolutely - I'm well educated, a writer and have lots of job experience and it still turns my stomach at the thought of re-writing my CV. ?

Seriously, if you struggle with your written English (which I would say is a given here) and don't have family or friends who can point you in the right direct and look over your job application, and you don't know how to lay out your CV and you aren't confident with using a computer...

What a horrible series of events. I really feel for the family. The daughter has the least of my sympathy, but what has she learnt about work from her family?

C'east la vie.

You have families now that have not worked for a couple of generations, so what do the offspring see as 'the norm'?

Also it is becoming an ever more daunting process to actually get into work, I had a young lady ask me to be her personal referee not that long ago, she's a student and was applying to work part-time in a video library. The application was like a small book.. Maybe 15/20 pages.

<old mode> In my day </old mode> the same application would have involved going into the shop and saying "Any jobs going?". It seems a relatively minor thing, but it's quite a lot to take in for some people.

I also gather that some companies have started to routinely credit check applicants as a security measure... Which almost automaticaly rules out anyone who works/lives in the cash economy.

I was just reading it as well. It is terribly sad. I'd like to say I can't imagine being apathetic enough not even to go down to the recruiting office to find out about my dream job - but I think a lot of 15 year olds are exactly that apathetic [looks daggers at No1 son].

They just seem so ill equipped to deal with anything. They need medical/psychiatric intervention for the elder son, but getting that takes knowledge and persistence as well as the willingness to engage with it. It really illustrates that the services that are out there don't reach the people most in need of them.

I find it quite sad really. It's easy to get stuck into a rut and suddenly trying to do anything, even if it will eventually help you, seems very scary and too much. Ideally I suppose they need someone who will point them in the right direction, help with writting CVs etc etc.

The sad thing is that even if work were found for these people, you can't imagine them lasting more than a few days in a job. It would be enormously stressful after years of just drifting, with every day the same, to suddenly face life with structure.

So true.

I think there's an element of people thinking that working is hard work, living off benefits is easier which I guess in some senses it is, as your choices and lifestyle are so limited, there's less to worry about.

But if you are 2nd or 3rd generation of a "workless" family then you won't know the benefits that working brings - the sense of self-respect, achievement, being financially secure (apparently!) and so on.

I still remember the high I had getting my first pay packet aged 12, I can't imagine what it must be to go through life without knowing what that feeling is like.

On one hand I think these people need more help for getting jobs. Things that we normally take for granted like basic reading/writing skills, writing CVs, interview skills are probably non-existent with these people, because they've never had jobs and dropped out of school. They need more help.

On the other hand, I need to ask (genuine question) if there are any other country that gives so much help for families without jobs? My home country never went through anything like welfare state so it's pretty imperative that people get jobs. Living on benefits will give you a really poor quality of life.

It's a desperately sad and all too familiar tale. By year 2 of secondary school I could predict who in my registration class would drift into joblessness after school, and I was right- often this is because they came from homes where nobody had ever worked (for many, often multiple, reasons:- lack of opportunity/ skills/ qualifications/ motivation, fear, mental health problems, bloody mindedness and long term conditioning). I believe strongly that National government initiatives, (such new deal etc) simply don;t work at local level,. The implementatoin is not properly monitored and the specific different problems of each community can be such that the whole bloody point is missed, and all you end up doing is patronising or alienating the peoiple that you should be helping. There has to be a better local-level roll-out of vocational training and rehabilitation centres. Having said that, in Glasgow itelf there is exactly such a programme, which even services Easterhouse (and I know, because I worked for the charity for a year after uni): - http://www.momentumscotland.org/

I know how tirelessly the charity promoted its services, via benefits centres, community and health centres, etc, yet I could never understand why there wasn't a greater demand for its services.

Biggest single issue IMHO is attitude, our (the populous) attitude to those in blue collar/menial/unskilled work.

It sucks.

By contrast, there is, at a personal level a kind of grudging respect or at least good humoured shrugging off of the Artful Dodger/Joey Boswell/Del Boy Trotter type that gets by on benefits and the odd bit of cash in hand work...

How many jokes have you heard about McDonalds staff?

It should be as simple as persuading people to stay on at school but in my experience (Scottish state school), the two optional final years are very much geared to those wanting to go to university. I remember some of my friends finding it really hard to get anything out of the last two years if they weren't planning to go to university and ending up quitting and drifting anyway - and they were people who were nowhere near the kind of social background that this article talks about.

Maybe that was just the school I went to but I always thought from then that the secondary education system now does little to cater for people who want to go to work straight from school.

But then even if all that was overhauled, it would be far from a solution.

I think the problem lies with the expectation of it being handed on plate - their income is handed to them so they are not able to have the feeling of having to earn a reward. Households that don't work are not going to look for work whilst in reciept of benefits that are the equal to a salaried Job - I guess this family have no rent to pay & would be on a tax credit income of £150 plus child benefit, the daughter would herself be in reciept of child benefit for her child & also child tax credit - So I would say they would have excess of £270 per week coming in.

I would like to see quite a number of lower paid jobs do away with the CV process as you would applying for a more job that required a higher ability. If you think about it those who have to do Comunnity Service are not CV'd to do basic jobs & can do the jobs with ease.

To be pedantic, in this example the family don't actually claim any JSA because they are not 'actively seeking work' (quite impressed by that actually). Their income is all derived from child related benefit, which is actually one of the least controversial types of benefit in my experience.

Slightly OT and not @ safetyzone, I think there's a real double standard between SAHM who are single parents ('benefit scrounger') and SAHM who have a partner who works. Most people would support the right of a woman to stay at home to bring up her kids if she chooses to so why should it make a difference to our attitudes whether she has a partner or not? Just a thought.

I boradly agree, so long as it is overall in the best interests of the child for her to do so. If going to work would be better (not jkust in financial terms, but in terms of the example set to the child and the mother's self-ersteem) then they should do that. What makes me furious is where people in such a situation are actually better off NOT working- who on earth can blame them for not bothering to get a job?

because IMO it is not a right to have children and frankly seems irresponsible to continue to produce children when you have no plan of how to support them rather than from other people's tax contribution

of course many people find themselves in difficult situations not of their own making - but i have very little sympathy for people who increase the size of their families with no plan or inclination to provide for them - or frankly do anything to help make them more productive or independent members of society

Only two groups that it really applies to, despite what you might read in the Daily Moan. Single parents and very large families.

<head above parapet> I actually blame the disparity in benefits between single childless & single with child for a not insignificant proportion of (basically) unwanted children.

In response to the SAHM question, I think that's a fair point, but it only really applies when the children are small. Once they're in full-time education, a mother who doesn't work will be kicking her heels and watching Jeremy Kyle for seven hours a day.

Also, the cost of childcare makes it prohibitive for many single mothers of young children (especially if there's more than one child) to return to work.

MrsJMP, I think it's a common misapprehension that people are "better off" on benefits than they would be working - afaik the system is structured in such a way that this just isn't the case. I can't imagine living on the income that family had - no wonder they are all depressed, you're just cut off from so much when money is as tight as that.

I have a friend who is workless. He is on disability though I think - he has some problem with headaches which medical science as yet cannot cure/diagnose. I feel bad for him but I don wonder how he will cope if/when he has to find a job. He has a degree which is now worthless (graphic design I think - so things have moved on so much since he graduated he'd be out of his depth - a freind in the same industry gave him some work to do at home as a favour and it had to be binned) and a real lack of confidence. We often discuss him in our group of friends and the outcome is that we think he sees the status quo as safe and anything outside of that he conveniently has 'attacks' that put him out of action for several days. His parents (who he lives with) are also seriously ill by all accounts so it's an all round tragic situation and we struggle to see what we can do to help.

No point to this post other than to say it seems so easy for some people to just fall through the cracks and not be able to climb back up.

I'm not convinced that it's actually the case for many people at all that they're better off on benefits than working. There has to be a number of other social factors that come into play there.

I feel for the family (not so much the daughter) the eldest son needs some sort of medical help so he can rebuild his life and start going out.

On the flip side though, we have had a cleaning job (I know, only cleaning and I'd imagine noone wants to do it, but sometimes needs must) advertised in our local shop window for about 3/4 months. Not one person has called or come in about it, and it's probably only 3 hours a day and pays well - and more importantly needs no qualifications. The shop is on a junior school road, so loads of parents go in there, which is why we advertised there. I know people who are desperate for jobs, but just don't get a break. I also know people who can't be bothered and don't want a job as they would rather just take the money being given to them by the rest of us.

Firstly, this woman started out as a "respectable" (if unemployed) woman with a partner. What should happen to women who end up as lone parents through being widowed or the end of a relationship? Who suddenly find themselves in your "irresponsible" category.

Secondly, you are assuming that everyone has the ability and means to control their fertility. And that is just not true if you are disenfranchised in the first place.

Finally, the right to a family life is enshrined in the UN declaration of Human Rights. So, like it or not, unemployed people can reproduce.

This is true. My mother fulfils both of those criteria and despite also getting DLA and ICA for my youngest brother is much worse off than she would be even on a minimum wage job.

In the example in the story, they are all living off £270 a week: for three adults, a teenager and a baby: I don't think that's more than they would get (as a family) in employment?

I know this is something that lots of people will disagree with me about

As i said in my post I do understand that there are people who find themselves in very difficult situations that are not of their own making

I dont think i have suggested anything happens to anyone - I was responding to RA's question about something she perceives to be a double standard

Whatever the rights to family life may or not be - I cant feel bad that I think it is irresponsible to have children you know you cant provide for, have no intention of doing anything to change so you can provide for them and do nothing to encourage them to improve their situation when they are older

After you take into account the cost of childcare, of buying a work wardrobe, of sorting out transport to and from work? Really? I'm sure I read a DWP report a few months ago which came to the conclusion that many recipients would be better off not bothering (and that's coiming form the government itself!). I don;t read the DM, incidentally.

I think there's always been some misapprehension in some quarters that 'living on benefits' affords you some kind of comfortable lifestyle where you don't have to pay anything out but are raking it in. That's so far from the truth it's laughable.

That family may well be bringing in £270 a week in benefits, but they will have to pay a nominal amount of rent out of that, they will also need to feed 5 people, heat their home, live day to day, clothe themselves, nappies for the child etc. Look at the price of Gas and Electric at the moment, I'd bet any money they're on a meter which makes it even more expensive.

I was a single parent on benefits, I had less than £98 a week to live on. I remember the day I rushed into my flat and dumped my shopping bags on the floor because I had a dodgy stomach and needed the loo. By the time I got out of the bathroom my (at the time) toddler son had destroyed 2/3rds of that shopping. It was all I had for the whole week and I had to ring my mum in tears, completely humiliated, having to ask her to get me some shopping because I couldn't afford to replace it. It was soul destroying. I was very lucky that I had the skillset and exam results that enabled me to eventually get a good job, but for me to break even after childcare I had to earn 17/18k a year, this was over 10 years ago.

I'm not telling that story to be 'poor me, look how tough it was' but to give people an insight into how completely demoralising living hand to mouth can be.

Of course there are people who take the piss, are pure lazy and will never break the cycle, but I'd wager they're in the minority.

I can assure you, from personal experience, that living on benefits as a lone parent isn't exactly profitable. It's also humiliating and soul-destroying, having to account for yourself endlessly to the powers that be as well as slavering Daily Hate reading ranters (to use a lazy cliche)

I actually had an argument about it with Dr Rhodes Boyson on national telly, back in my student days ?

Being a lone parent and working is also a logistical nightmare if you don't have family nearby who can do full time childcare. If your child is below school age then there's no way you can afford childcare. Even with tax credits, forget it. If you work anything other than standard hours, getting childcare isn't possible. Once they're at school, in some ways it gets harder. Co-ordinating breakfast clubs or before school care, everything for school, a different after school carer and your own work is a headache. Finding and paying for full time childcare in holidays, when you'll also have to pay retainers to keep your term time care going? Not easy. Then as they get older, every time they're off school sick you have to miss work or take them with you.

The barriers to lone parents working are still there, although things are better than they used to be. At least John Redwood's plan to institutionalise us all and make us scrub steps didn't come to pass ?

Yeah, really. Just over £200 a week plus tax/child credits etc. There's no comparison.

Unless you're a single parent childcare shouldn't be an issue......

When I worked in the sector we ran a gateway course for those about to go on New Deal. One of our ice-breakers was based around illustrating how much better off people would be working for minimum wage. The caveat was that we had to ensure there were no single parents or parents of (it was either three children or more or 'after the third child' i.e. four or more, don't recall) in the group because invariably they wouldn't better off or it would be such a close call that they'd blow it off. Fr everyone else the numbers worked, usually by a far greater margin than they realised.

Completely agree with this. It amazes that even when parents are together, both of them manage to work in this country unless they're very high earners (in SA it's completely different - it's incredibly common for middle-class families to have a full-time domestic worker and poorer families to have access to friends and family who don't work and can therefore take on childcare). Doing it as a single parent must be hellish.