Is this odd, or have I lived a sheltered life? (poss sens)...

Very odd, disturbing, weird and something I would have thought anyone who'd been in that horrible situation would never want to broadcast. My FIL has a photo of a still-born child on the wall in their hall which I don't like and that's in their own home.

It's not something that I would choose personally but you don't know what will make grieving people feel better. 5 months really isn't all that long when you've lost a baby so it's not surprising that having had the tshirt made she would still be wearing it. Also, they may have been on their way to a charity event and just stopped to get some provisions on the way?

I think it's unusual, and my thought would be that they might be on their way to some kind of charity or family event where it would be fitting.

BUT, looking at the dreadful experiences that some of our community on BT have been through - some as recently as this week, some years ago - it strikes me that the thing they say again and again is that it's as if their baby hasn't ever been real to some of their friends/family. It's as if their baby's existence is just brushed under the carpet; they don't get to show off photos, talk about their baby, any of the things other parents do. I feel privileged to have seen photos of some BTers' babies who were stillborn or who died very soon after birth. Of course it's upsetting, but at the same time those babies are very much still part of their family.

One poster, who has done loads to raise awareness and money for SANDS, the stillbirth charity, posted about this a couple of days ago, about how she is a mother of three even though only two of her boys are with her now.

(And, incidentally, another big cheer for the Reading BTers who raised phenomenal amounts of money at the "Mummy Loves Cake" sale yesterday, proceeds to SANDS)

Maybe the t-shirt wearing woman was going to something like that; or maybe she just doesn't have any other way to commemorate this baby's life.

Thank you for your replies.

Sorry for the way that came across SC_99. I am completely aware that it takes a long time to be able to deal with something like that, so I didn't mean "why after 5 months is she still upset?" I just think that it was an odd thing to choose to wear when going shopping to the Supermarket, IYKWIM.

Maybe she was going to a charity event, but she had a trolley with a weeks worth of shopping. And her partner wasn't wearing a similar t-shirt or something that would suggest they were attending a charity event...he was quite shoddily dressed.

Grief takes people funny ways. If she is this baby's mother, perhaps a t-shirt with his picture on is the nearest she can get to all the dreams she had about pushing him around Tesco in a trolley, buying baby things, having strangers stop her and ask his name. Perhaps it's the only way she can say to the world "I'm still a mother even though my baby is dead"

Thank you for making those points.

And I am sorry if this question has offended anyone or people have found it insensitive. I am just quite ignorant about this, as I have explained and just wanted to be informed.

I do think it's a bit odd. I can understand why parents of still born children need photos, but I don't like them. That's my problem really, but I don't think I'd like to look at ANY photo of a dead person. I can't begin to imagine how it must feel, however, if the ONLY photos of a person are such, and I do realise that they are part of the family and it may be some comfort o them to remember them this way.

ON another note, a neighbour of mine recently lost her husband. He'd been ill for a long time and was only a youngish chap, so very sad. The family wore black football shirts (local team's away strip) for the funeral, and hers had her husbands bname and "1" on it. I have since seen her wearing the top and have wondered how it makes her feel - connected to him, i guess.

On the other hand, when I was bereaved (and it wasn't a child so maybe not comparable, but it did leave me with a massive cvoid that couldn't be filled) I wouldn't have wanted to be walking round with a t-shirt that in essence said "I'm grieving". It would, in my head anyway, have invited conversation with people I didn't really want to talk to, ie strangers, or curiosity I could do without.

I realise now, that what you have written so succinctly, is how I felt about the t-shirt. I could never imagine telling hundreds of people (which is what she was doing), about such a personal thing. Like you say, it's inviting people to gossip or question. (As I am doing here!)

From what you say about nevering wanting to broadcast it and objecting to a photograph, it sounds like you think a lost child should be something to be hushed up and forgotten about like a dirty secret? Why?

I agree it's unusual to have a t-shirt like that but presumably it gives the wearer some comfort so fair dos to her.

Or inviting people to acknowledge her loss? I know some people on BT have talked about how some family and friends disappear after a baby dies, as if they think not talking about it has made the problem go away. Dreadfully hurtful.

Yes, maybe....I'm just not the sort of person who would want to do that publicly, which is maybe why I found it difficult to understand.

I also find it a little odd. Obviously people should express their grief in their own way and I certainly don't criticise her for doing that.

Quick thought - at running and similar events you quite often see personalised t-shirts where the runner is raising money for a cause in memory of a specific person - I suppose it's possible that they'd done something like this and she was just wearing the shirt?

That's what I originally thought, but there were no charity logos on it and lacked the general, "running in memory of.." written on it. The front was plain. She also didn't look especially sporty, if you get my drift!

?

<congratulates self for not putting "Or was she a total lardarse?" at end of post>

I think I've worked it out.....

Just done some research online and there was a charity fun run today in our local park, so maybe she was supporting someone who was running.

ETA - I feel like bit of an idiot now.

Sorry again if anyone found my initial question insensitive.

You shouldn't feel like an idiot - nothing wrong with asking and in fact it souklds like she wasn't just randomly wearing the shirt. Glad we have an answer.

Or doing it herself to get fit? I am not exactly a runner in appearance (read short and fat!) but have run 10 miles (in what feels like dim and distant past?)

You're not an idiot ?

I too would find the t.shirt odd, unless she was wearing it for an event of some sort.

But, and apologies in advance, this may be sensitive.......

When **Pip** over on BT lost Theo at the end of last year (having gone into labour, at term and thinking all would be well) we were first blown away that something so awful could happen to one of us, in this day and age, because it just doesn't does it?

But as we got talking about it, almost every single one of us found ourselves saying "It happened to my friend/ my cousin/ my mum/ my MIL".

These women and their partners had had babies who were still born, at term or late in pregnancy, or who were born alive but so ill that they lived for only a few hours or days.

Macca told us about the SANDS "Why 17?" campaign, and that 17 mothers, every day, find themselves in this position, and suddenly it wasn't a surprise that we almost all knew someone who'd been affected.

The surprise was that we thought it was unusual.

We think that, because we don't talk about it, we "hush it up", because it's dreadful and upsetting and we don't know how to handle it.

But we need to stop doing that. Because until we do no one will change it, no one will spend money on research that can change things. And until we do these women will continue to feel that they are somehow less "mothers" than their peers.

Big thank yous to TF, Zebra And PL for speaking so sensitively and eloquently.

This is it exactly. We, as a nation, aren't exactly reknowned for our emotional openness, but when it comes to babyloss, and stillbirth in particular, there is a whole world out there filled with women (and men of course, Fathers Feel Too) who feel they have to suffer in silence for fear of upsetting other people. Which is quite horrific really, that we, those who are bereaved and utterly vulnerable, feel the need to protect others' sensitivities....

To the OP, thank you for posting this. While you may have found it odd, you are at least approaching it from the right angle- you want to know more about the subject, presumably because you are sensitive to the feelings of others, and want to understand/empathise. I commend you for that.

Tragically, the statistics TF has quoted above are accurate - 17 babies every single day are stillborn (born dead after 24 weeks of pregnancy) or in the first 4 weeks of life.

• 6500 babies every year
• The equivalent of 16 FULL jumbo jets crashing with no survivors - every year
• 4 times the number of MRSA deaths every year
• More than TWICE the number of adults killed on Britain's roads every year

Can you imagine the public outcry if 16 jumbo jets were crashing every single year? All those lives lost; without any public demand for explantion?! And yet that is the number of babies lost every year, the number of families ripped apart and left devastated.

My first son Noah, was stillborn on June 11th 2005, after a 'textbook' pregnancy and with no cause for his death discovered.

I have lost all but one of my friends since losing Noah; the majority could not handle my grief and went out of their way to avoid me. I have had to listen to such gems as, "Well at least you lost him before you got to know him"; "You're only young, you can have more" and "Well, its not like he was a proper baby, is it?".

A quick read of some of the threads on BT show that I am far from alone in enduring such insensitivity.

Champagne, I find it so, so sad that you are so disgusted by the picture of a stillborn child on your FIL's wall. I am assuming that this is not a random child, but his own child/grandchild/sibling? Why on earth would he not display the photo, if he chooses? I have my sons' photos up - all three of them; the two I have alive and well, and the one who died. Have you any idea how painful it is that the only things I have left of my first son are a few photos and a lock of his hair?

And its not a case of wanting to "broadcast" it; its more that I want, no I need for my son to be acknowledged (I am the poster PL referred to above; the mother of three who has only two boys with me now) Its partly why we had an open funeral for him; so that he would be afforded his rightful place in my extended family (its a very personal decision, many parents are more comfortable with a private service). Many of my family members said that the funeral helped to make Noah more real to them. When a baby is stillborn, or dies shortly after birth, the parents, and the mother particularly, are the only ones who had any real relationship with them. I carried Noah for 9 months. My body nurtured him and sustained him all that time. I felt him move in me and heard his heartbeat. He was as real to me as my other children, though he never took a breath.

I cannot do anything to bring my son back, but I can do my damndest to raise awareness, raise money and raise sensitivity levels. I am training as a Sands Befriender so that I can counsel similarly bereaved parents, I attended the Parliamentary launch of the Sands Why 17 Campaign and do all I can to raise the profile of this wonderful charity, whose major goals are to support bereaved parents, their friends and families; and to raise funds for more research into the causes of stillbirth (more than 50% - last year's figure was 66% - of stillbirth have NO cause discovered, even after a PM)

I wish I'd known about Hitched, BT in particular, when I lost Noah. I think I would have felt less alone.

The ladies from BT have shown tremendous support, and raised some wonderful amounts of money for Sands, through donations, sponsored events, parties, Nearly New sales & mostly, lots of cake-eating....

If you would like to know anymore, I am happy to answer any questions. Sands website ( www.uk-sands.org ) has all the information you could ever need (plus lots of ways to fundraise....)

Any donations would also be gratefully accepted. My justgiving page link is in my signature.

As usual as it is I find your comments very harsh.

Thank you Macca, for all of the above information. (I am a wreck now!)

I am so, so sorry to hear about your loss and I am shocked at the lack of support that you received from the people around you. I cannot begin to imagine it.

Those statistics that you posted are awful, but thank you for informing me.

I am looking forwards to one day, joining you all over on BT. You sound as though you have a very strong, tight and supportive community.

Thank you also for alleviating some of the worry I was feeling for posting this thread. ?

x

While I can see why people would have the photos/wear the t shirt and I totally support the need to acknowledge and encourage others to acknowledge the loss, I can also see how other people may find the notion of being confronted by an image of a stillborn baby unsettling, upsetting or horrifying. I don't think that's an extraordinary reaction by any means - it is not usual to see pictures of the dead and not something you are just going to be accustomed to.

L
xx

Please don't feel bad about it. I was the mother of two children - AND training to work professionally with pregnant mothers and their partners - before I knew any of this stuff. To my shame, I had no idea of the numbers until Macca encouraged us to get involved in the "Why 17?" campaign. More importantly I'd never "met" anyone who had been through this until being on BT, and learning from Macca, Quincy, Madonna, **Pip**, Clairejk and too many others who have been one of the 17 on a day that should have been one of the happiest days of their lives.

Incidentally, the CEMACH* report into why babies are stillborn or die very soon after birth has just been published. Three quarters of those babies die for reasons that no one can identify - yet. And, just as the mothers who die tend to be very young or very old, from poorer backgrounds or ethnic minorities, the babies who die more often come from those backgrounds as well.

*confidential enquiry into maternal and child health - they look at the reasons, the circumstances of every maternal and neonatal death in the UK.

I have made a small donation, but I please let me know of any more support I can offer.

(I hope to be able to donate more when my student loan comes through and when I can find a part time job.)

In response to being quoted, I wasn't trying to be "harsh" or "insensitive" but was merely answering the OP in my opinion of her experience and then sharing one that I'd had along similar lines. I apologise if I can across like this. Not having children I can't clearly see how parents are affected by this terrible occurrence and it's shocking to see how common it is. The photo I referred to was a grandchild of the FIL but 2nd late-in-life marriage so no direct relation to my H and my MIL doesn't like it being there either.

I'm not going to come back on this thread so please don't quote me.

My MIL had a stillborn baby almost a year to the day before my OH was born (she was induced to avoid them having the same birthday). There are no photos of Charlotte in the house, and my OH was told very little about her as she grew up. The first conversation she can remmber having was just after her 17th birthday when her dad said "You're sister would have been 18 today." She's never discussed it with her mum, and it was only a couple of years ago when my OH's cousin went through something similar, that OH ever heard her mum mention it.

My godmother who I am extremely close to lost her first son Simon to SIDS at a few weeks old. This would have been about 40 years ago. She talks about it openly. She stold me how she wasn't allowed to see Simon after he died, and was expected to just move on. She has always ben very expressive, and at a time when many people felt the best way to move on was to forget, she couldn't. Even now, every year she buys a helium balloon on his birthday, and lets it go on the day he died. She loves him as much as any of her three other grown up children, and considers herself to be a mother of 4.

People deal with grief very differently. I would have been surprised at seeing that t-shirt (unless it was at some charity event) but I can understand why someone would want to express that they are a mother too, even though they don't have their baby anymore.

It's interesting how over time people are encouraged to deal with grief differently. I can't comment on my MIL as I've not had an open discussion with her, but my godmother told me she was desperate to see Simon one last time, and how she wasn't allowed to, everybody thought it wold be better for her. Now, parents of babies/children who die are encouraged to spend time with the, to say a final goodbye. I believe it can help with acceptance. I have unfortunately been present at or just after the deaths of young children (police always attend at the sudden death of a young child, just on case), and it's heartbreaking, but I can see how spending that time with their children can help the parents. I hadn't really thought about stillborn children, but I can see how having those few precious photos would be so important.

I agree with this (i seem to agree with Lois on everything) I can see why Champagne finds that disturbing and I think it would be better to awknoledge that rather than vilify it,. Many Many people will find pictures of dead people disturbing. I understand that in this case, if there were any pictures of the baby alive they would be the ones displayed instead in most cases, and I also understand i would be unlikely to give a *** what others thought in that situation, but still, their thoughts would be understandable.

Can I ask what the objective of why 17 is?

Oh I think everyone would agree that the t-shirt is unusual, and I'd find it very upsetting to be confronted with a picture of a dead baby without being prepared for it first. But I think I understand a bit more about why someone might wear it than I would have done before.

Why17? Is about raising awareness of the huge numbers of families affected, raising money for SANDS to carry on campaigning - and working as a pressure group to try to get more research done into this, to try to avoid the situation where 3/4 of bereaved families don't know why their babies have died, and no one can promise it won't happen again tomorrow to another 17 families.

Thanks PL- and apologises on rereading I've noticed the website was posted so off to have a look now.

I'm really pleased this thread has stayed polite and civilised, despite the emotive subject matter. Credit to the OP for the way it has been worded, despite not knowing any of the 'history' of those BTers who have suffered late term/neonatal losses. Being a long term BT lurker, the stories of those who have suffered these losses went a long way into convincing me to continue pursuing the specialty that I am.

I do think it's quite common to find pictures of stillborn babies upsetting - hence such posts being titled as *sens* over on BT, and I agree with Lois & Hyacinth that it is important to accept this rather than shout people down for saying so. My personal feeling would be that I wouldn't like to upset others with that photo at a time they weren't expecting it (ie in the supermarket, rather than at a charity run). I can see how some people who have suffered babyloss would find it difficult to handle unexpectedly, as well as those who would be pleased about 'increased awareness'. Additionally, without trying to being too insensitive or graphic, there are pictures of stillborn babies that are easier to see than others. I think this (t-shirt) is a different situation to having a photo in your own home, which of course is very important to many people and absolutely not something to hide away.

But, having never been in that situation I can't possibly say how I would feel.

It's NOT just 'after a baby dies'. It's when ANYONE dies. When my mom died, suddenly, her next door neighbour asked where Mom was, and when I told her she said 'you're joking!' It was just an unfortunate turn of phrase but I could have punched her f*cking lights out. Instead, I went and cried some more. With hindsight, I realise it was more about her inability to think of anything else to say, and also about my need for privacy - as well as the fact that I don't llike this neighbour very much. So YES, I understand fully that people want friends and family to acknowledge a loss, but not random strangers who don't know where to look or what to say!

(I realise this is somewhat a moot point now it's been established that the mother we're talking about appears to have been involved in a charity event, but wanted to come back and explain this.)

A couple of other things I wanted to add. I had 2 weeks off work after mom died. My boss emailed me to see how I was and if there was anything he could do, and the ONE thing I wanted was for him to ask all my colleagues NOT to mention or acknowledge what had happened. I didn't want to be breaking down and crying all over the place.

My best friend had twins last year, only one of them survived. We're very close, yet it's taken her a year to want to talk to me about little Charlie.

There needs to be a little more recognition that one size does not fit all and that different people react differently to bereavement.