(Christian) Domestic Discipline (sens re abuse?)

It isn't pleasant Mrs M. Did you ever see the Louis Theroux documentry with the fanactical nuts who stalked the funerals of dead American soldiers with banners saying that they deserved to die becuase they were 'fag' lovers (because the American Army purports not to discriminate on the grounds of sexuality and therefore all soldiers are 'fag' lovers)? On that very same documentary was a man who made 'beating paddles' out of wood to beat children with. Each and every one was inscribed with a quote from the bible. They guy gave them away for free, so strong was his belief that kids needed to be beaten with wooden implements.

This isn't really about Christianity, or any other religon. These people are sadists and control freaks who hide behind a religous label to make their behaviour sound acceptable, or try to normalise it.

It's unbelievable isn't it.

I thought the greatest commandment was to love one another. Yet somehow the people who write this stuff, believe that they ARE being loving! And that they are 'lovingly' protecting their wives.

I split up with my Christian bf because he truely believed that the man should be the head of the household and if he told me to do something sinful, I should do it without question, at the day of judgement the sin would be on his head.

I told him bollocks, I'm not going to do something I disagree with because you say you'll take the rap from God! We split up over it. Oh as well as because he said I was 'full of demons' because I liked going to the pub for a drink now and again, and that I couldn't listen to Depeche Mode because their song Personal Jesus was blasphemous.

He never went as far as suggesting he should spank me to tears for disobediance, but they way his faith was going I wouldn't be surprised. He would have sex with me, then pray at the end of the bed to god for forgiveness from the jezebel that tempted him (I think he meant me!)

His faith really messed with my head for a long time after we split up. This Christian Discipline stuff is real brainwashing. It would really *** you up. I mean really you're supposed to spend your days being contrite and have to keep a behaviour journal. F'ing hell.

The thing is they will create a community where all the people believe in this stuff so that even if a wife doesn't agree with it, she won't have any non CDD friends to talk to. She'll have 'holier than thou' female friends who will tell her to accept it.

Blimey, just realised typing this how angry I still am! Since we split up, apart from friends' weddings and christenings, I haven't stepped foot in a church.

That is really horrible Madge. The thing is, if a couple want to "run" their marriage like that, then fine. But to link it to the teachings of the bible seems very wrong, and could surely mean that women who aren't really happy with it end being submissive because it's "holy" IYSWIM.

Revolting material.

Surely ritualised behaviour like this is about control and power rather any true belief. I bet there's a really strong sexual element to it as well. Wonder how many of these men also think it's acceptable to rape your wife too?

I struggle to believe there's a single person doing that for whom it it isn't some sort of suppressed sex thing. Grim*.

(* not the sex, the repression of sex so that it comes out in a way that's abusive)

It's abhorrent and it's about as far from christianity as you can imagine.

Indeed.

WSS. It's disturbing really. Man isn't God, and therefore, should not be doling out punishment.

I'm a Christian and there's no way in a million years that any of that stuff is about the Christian faith and it is so NOT what the bible says. So very sad. I imagine that makes God incredibly sad and angry too.

Shooting star your post made me want to cry. What a horrible experience. Please, please realise that most Christians are not like your ex-bf! No wonder you feel messed up by it ?

It really has got to me and I couldn't stop reading about it so it got to me even more. I think perhaps because I'm a Christian and was brought up to love and care for everyone and to treat people with respect, regardless of sex or faith. I find it so hard to comprehend on this basis and it beggars belief that people use the same bible that taught me to love one another to essentially beat their wives on a whim, using god as their reasoning. I think you are spot on about the feeling of power and control.

I did see that programme Missus Jolly, equally disturbing. ☹️

? Shooting star, I'm so glad you got out of the relationship, it certainly doesn't hang true for any Christian men I know out there.

I often wish I'd married a Christian (a loving and caring one, not a abuser) as I would love to share my faith with someone. It's neither wonder being a Christian can be so lonely in our times when people who "practise" CDD are still around. I hope to god it's isolated but sadly, I wonder if it really is the case that some men who beat their wives in our modern world really see it as right?

Hey Ellie,

I am over it really, just typing it up made me angry again!

I do know some lovely Christians so definitely don't think all Christians are like that!

It was just a very bad experience! He had some strange ideas and we were both quite young at the time. He's married now with 2 children although I haven't seen him since we split up I hope he's mellowed a bit as he has aged.

My beliefs have moved on aswell so while I would say I'm not affiliated with any religion, I am much more open to spirituality.

I don't agree with you there (this is an extreme example and that is a lot of put-togethers!) but you are completely entitled to your opinion. I do agree that it has caused many unnecessary wars and everyone (religious or not) could do with remembering the words "love one another" a lot more!

Sorry, I hope this doesn't turn into big debate about religion/christianity in general as I doubt many people have any more to add to the debate on top of what has been said many a time. I was genuinely shocked to read about this this morning and I'm definitely not naive when it comes to religion!

Strewth! That people really do seem to believe this stuff never fails to amaze me. It also angers me that Christianity is being taken and misinterpreted in such a vile way.

I don't agree with you either jules, although reading the CDD stuff I can see why people think that. It's extremists giving a very, very wrong impression again.

Shooting star, glad you're okay ?

Mrs Magic I feel very fortunate that my H is a Christian (a loving, kind one!) - I can imagine it is lonely not being able to share and express your faith with him. Don't read around this subject anymore... ?

Just found this in some of the material

The original complaints was from a wife whose husband spanks her too hard with a paddle (because a hand is for love) and while she agrees with the CDD lifestyle, it hurts too much

The advice given was: Might I suggest that you're narrowing your focus too much? You seem to be just focusing on the spanking, without looking at the big picture of what your husband is trying to do for you through loving discipline. As a godly man, he has seen you err and loves you enough to correct you for that error. It's not easy for a man to see his wife kicking and crying in distress, knowing he is the cause of her pain. And yet he is doing that because he loves you. Afterwards, you are unlikely to repeat the offense, and doesn't that reticence make you a better person?
Imagine if your husband were different. Imagine if he didn't care that you drove speeding down the highway, even though he knew you might end up dead. Imagine if he allowed you to continue down the path of defiance and finally let you know how he felt when he served you divorce papers.

Thank goodness when I got a speeding ticket my H just said 'Pay out of your own money, not the joint account' which I would have done anyway - and that was that!

That's horrific. They're taking verses completely out of context and warping them into 'justification' for beating their wives. The key is 'Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her.', i.e. He was the one being beaten - see how easily I could shape that into an argument for wives regularly beating their husbands?

Ellie, I'm definitely not clicking any more, I think getting it out here has helped! Last week's obsessive google attack was polygamy, LDS, FLDS etc. I always seem to get the obsessiveness when I haven't slept properly, I was even watching a recording of a Utah phone in show for polygamists on-line at 4am last week!

I can't help but feel utter sadness for anyone who is trapped in a religious life they are too afraid to leave and thank god every day that the modern churches no longer trot out "you laid your bed..." to people any more or condone violence. Husband, lover or random man on the street, no-one has the right to hit anyone by any justification, and especially not with god as their reason.

I'm stuck in a bit of a Christian rut at the moment. I am RC and would love to stay that way but have become so disillusioned by parts of it. I would love to move to a more "happy clappy" ? denomination but I know it would break my mum's heart. Having someone to share the joys available in a faith with would be very lovely.

It's scary shooting star, isn't it?

I'll give you a couple of days to come up with some figures to support your argument, and then maybe we can have a serious discussion.

I won't hold my breath.

OK, let me get you started . . .

The Korean war. 1.5 million dead. In a country about the size of the UK.

The Khmer Rouge. 2 million dead. 600,000 made homeless

Vietnam war. 5 million dead, including 2 million civillians.

The Chinese cultural revolution. 2 million dead. 36 million persecuted. The near complete destruction of a culture and its historical treasures.

WW one. 13 million dead. An entire generation sacrificed.

WW two. 72 million dead, including 47 million civillians. Poland lost 16% of their population.

The Great Plague (c 1350). 75 million deaths. Europe lost around 50% of its population.

1918 Influenza. Up to 100 million deaths. Frankly the number was impossible to compute.

Malaria. 150 million deaths, and that's just in the last 60 years. 2 million a year are still dying.

Seriously, what has religion done to compare to these ?

Jules, please say you understand that it has absolutel nothing to do with religion in any way, and that like many fundamentalists, they are simnply using religion as the boat to carry them on the water.

PP, one could say that all those things were "gods work", no?

Religion isn't the problem, the problem is man twisting religion to have an excuse as to why what they're doing is right.

Religion can be a fabulous thing and gives many people comfort. Unfortunately though, like in most things, you always get the hard line crew who spoil things.

Well, you could Nick, but I'd have to disagree with you.

I have no problem with Jules thinking all religion is rubbish. I do have the right to challenge her on why she thinks that though.

But i thought that believers feel that everything that happens is to do with gods will? or is that only the "good" stuff? does sinning come in to things? punishment etc?

btw, not taking the piss, just wondering.

if "god is good" and has power over all things, then the biggest reason i am not a believer is why does he allow these things to happen? (the usual answer is the mysterious ways one but i know youre not going to say that)

I do have to dash, but quickly . . .

As you have demonstrated on numerous occasions, you have little idea what most Christians believe. They (in the main) certainly don't believe that Hitler, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot etc were working under God's guidance (free will and all that).

Yes, disease / natural disaster is a tricky one. But the bible does go to great pains to point out that life is not meant to be easy. Some might even say it was a challenge to be overcome and that the life hereafter is the one to look forward to. But I'm not sure I buy into that 100%.

But, just for once could you please not derail this ? I seriously doubt either of us has anything new to add to the "Is there a god" debate. The point I was challenging is that religion (regardless of whether it is hokum or not) is responsible for the majority of the world's suffering.

I don't believe it is, and would be very pleased to see Jules defend her position.

There are very interesting parallels between "God knows what is best for me, therefore I trust him" and "a husband has to discipline his wife to protect her." Both paternalistic.

I agree wth Pieman about free will. It could be said that free will is the best and worst gift god gave us as he couldn't control how we use it. Whatever god/good we believe in, most of us use our free will for good as we are honest, law abiding and loving but there will always be people who use that free will against the greater good by causing heartache, breaking laws and in extreme cases, causing war.

As for why bad things happen to good people when not caused by someone else? I find that harder to explain and to get my head around. It's a question I would very much like the answer too but I guess if I did know, I would either be wealthy or dead.

In my provincial Northern Irish upbringing (thankfully not my own parents) this seemed to be pretty openly preached by ministers and leaders of the church. And, in so many instances, with women advised that marriage is the be all and end all of existence, they would go along with it. I remember once as a teenager challenging this, and there being little answer but 'thats the way it is'. Its like a diluted version of the westboro stuff posted yesterday.

God isn't like that (at least not in my, albeit limited, experience). Unfortunately what Christians have is based on 'faith', and stories like this are enough to shake my own to the core, never mind someone who has had no experience of God.

And, although it should never EVER happen, I'll bet there are a fair few out there commited to cleaning up the mess that doctrine like that creates.

<disclaimer> I did a "religion and politics" module at uni which was fascinating, and I am not religious, nor do I subscribe to the "religion is evil" camp, just wanted to counteract the above with major religious conflicts which have led to many millions of deaths (dont have numbers at hand)

Middle East Conflict

Iran and the Islamic Revolution

The Holocaust

Shia vs Sunni (various places in middle east)

Tibet to a certain extent

Further back what about the Crusades? The Reformation?

Nigeria & East Africa..........

What hazel said.

And I don't think "all" religion is bollocks, just much of it.

Immature belief in any cause leads to wars; religion is just one excuse.

And a vast amount of good has been done in the name of religion too.

but these are all really territorial/economic no? just in the name of religion - it is nothing to do with faith - it is people doing evil things and dressing them up in whatever guise fits

i am not a lover of organised religion because it allows this and also because i think it has far more to do with power and control than anything spiritual - i think this is why i see faith and church as two entirely separate things

But isn't that just a function of the fact that religious differences are essentially tribal? My gripe with wars in the name of religion is that thinking you're doing God's will is a very handy way to avoid looking at the actual moral basis your actions. You never ask questions when God's on your side, as the blessed Bob would say.

(I'm not being drawn on the Q of whether religion has done more harm than X, Y and Z as I think it's a bit silly and impossible to answer- how can one determine what harm has been caused by religion and what would have happened anyway or may have been prevented by religion? I would, however, chalk up on the anti-religion side the Catholic Church's campaign to prevent the use of condoms in the developing world, something that seems to be based purely on a fairly random bit of religious belief and which has caused and will continue to cause untold misery).

Even as a catholic, I agree with you. It's one of my issues. That, along with the pope in general (who is undoing the good work by JP2 scarily quickly), views on gay relationships and the fact priests can't marry. I have my faith and that stays fairly constant but I struggle to deal with the upper echelons, the bureaucracy and politics.

I would like to go to the Apostolic Church, to see what it's like. Everyone (pretty much all black congregation, in their sunday finery) who goes to the one near us on a Sunday always look happy, happy to be with their families and excited to be going to worship a god and chucrch they have true faith in. I don't go though because it would upset my mum.