Compulsory MMR?

Same as you Flowery. But I think if it's necessary then I'm in favour.

Here's what I said on BT (as you'll probably all know I am passionately in favour of the MMR believing it to be as safe as a vaccination can possibly be)

I'm not a fan of making it compulsory. I really don't like the idea of removing free choice, however much I disagree with people who don't have it done. Plus if people think there's a government conspiracy on safety this isn't going to help.

The thing about MMR is that people have fears about it - whether or not I consider those fears to be valid, people still have them and so there needs to be an opportunity to engage with people and discuss their worries. It's not about educating people - we know from other sciencey subjects that the deficit model ("if only they knew X they'd change their mind!") doesn't work.

So I think what we need is a whole load of work to find ways to engage people. Train HVs and doctors to listen to people's fears and engage with them to explain it not just hand them a leaflet and tell them it's safe. Get key people in the community to talk about MMR safety. Ad campaigns are part of it but not all of it.

Reluctantly, no I don't agree. But I reserve the right to rant at anti-vac loons. And to bring out the "Science News Cycle" which is due another airing! ?

What I should have added is that I feel like making it compulsory is sort of bypassing all those more important (and frankly more expensive) ways of increasinguptake and will only undermine confidence in the scientific methodology.

I have instinctive misgivings about making it compulsory, but I think there's a strong case for it in these particular circumstances - despite right being overwhelmingly on its side, the government has let the likes of Melanie Phillips make all the running by its wishy-washy approach to the MMR controversy, with the result that the efficacy of the vaccination programme has been seriously undermined.

And plenty of countries also make it compulsory - including the US and Australia - so it's not actually that radical a move.

I actually think making it compulsory would be playing into the hands of the tinfoil hatters. It would be a gift for the conspiracy theorists who believe it's a way of controlling "our children" who'd then join forces with the Melanie Phillips science morons and all the libertarians as well. If you don't make it compulsory, but present it (as Hazel says) as a positive choice then it might work better?

I think the net result of making it compulsory might just be a massive rise in the numbers of people opting for independent or home education. And then the government would have more of an excuse to try to "regulate" home ed, as it's trying to do at the moment, which would be a massive shame. It's not the central issue by a long way, but it's an important consideration if you're a home schooler.

I pretty much agree with you all the way Hazel (as you could probably guess) but the main reason I am torn is that any outreach/hearts-and-minds type programme will take a while to show results, and be expensive, and all that time more and more children will be at risk.

But then any legislation would take a while to come in anyway. As would all the documentation etc for proving vaccination. And would also be expensive.

And would they waive it for children who *couldn't* have the MMR for medical reasons? I assume so, but that's not always a good idea ?, not with this government.

I think it's a great idea - if you want state education, you get your child vaccinated.

If you don't, I'm sure that there will be a few private schools who will take unvaccinated children. Bollox to the tinfoil hat brigade, frankly, I don't think any amount of reasoning will change their minds.

This is what I posted about it on BT earlier:

agree that it should made compulsory. Well not in a "we'll come and kidnap your kids under cover of darkness and forcibly administer it" way but in that telling parents their children will not be able to access state services such as state nursery, state schools unless they have it. Private schools would as now be able to make their own rules about who they accept and there is also the option of home schooling. That does leave parents an element of choice but hopefully means a significant proportion of parents feel they have no choice but to give their children the vaccine. There should of course be exceptions for children such as immunocompromised children that cannot have the vaccine. I think that the public health issue and the concern over a measles epidemic trumps parental choice in this situation and if a public health expert thinks its a good idea then its good enough for me ?

I'm torn - I think its really important that those who can be vaccinated, are. And some people will be loons however much you try and persuade them otherwise.

Sure the ideal solution would be to put some sort of vaccine in the water? ? If you don't like it, don't drink it. (Non vaccinable children would have a special filter issued by me) [fimble updates Plan For World Domination]

I just don't think it's as simple as it looks to make it mandatory. I think it could have all sorts of horrible backlashes that we won't be prepared for.

Or are we over-thinking it? Small pox vaccinations were mandatory in the 1800s, and that worked. And as Mr JK said, it is compulsory in other countries.

THe problem is that public health experts say all sorts of things - I mean, some say that noone should have antidepressants, for example. Some say that all women should have continuous monitoring in labour. Some say that there's no benefit to BFing after 6 months.

So whilst I do agree that MMR is safe, I'm not sure that that's the best argument.

I'm in favour of it being compulsory (actually, I'm in favour of all vaccinations that are currently offered as standard being compulsory). I agree that there should be normal exceptions (those who are immunocompromised etc), but I'm horrified by the siutation we've found ourselves in over MMR (and the fact that we seem to be the only country that has had such a backlash).

I was part of the compulsory vaccination programme in the USA, which also meant I didn't remember the vast majority of my injections, as I'd had them so young, and meant I missed one of the ones they gave at teenage during my schooling here (hurrah!).

I agree with Seraphina and Roobarb, if you want access to state services then your children should have to be vaccinated. Why should my or others children be put at risk just to pander to those who are too stupid to vaccinate?

Meh, I have little patience with the stupids at the moment, sorry.

There would have to be exceptions. As has been mentioned, immunosuppressed children or those with other medical conditions. Which is an ideal commercial opportunity for people to make money by offering private consultations to certify that children are exempt. There would have to be a kind of conscientious objection too, for families who didn't want the vaccine on the grounds that it contained animal products, or that the original vaccine was made from a dead fetus. So, those parents who were keen enough on avoiding it still would - ie exactly the same group who are the hard core of objectors now.

It would also have knock on effects on the education of some of the children most in need of stability and being "visible" in the system; those being brought up by parents who really can't cope for whatever reason, who are likely to miss out on immunisations in the same way as they miss out on other basic care. So what do you do, say that children whose parents can't get organised enough to have them vaccinated can't go to school - thus leaving them in a chaotic situation where they're highly unlikely to get any education at all. Or do you say that all children have to be vaccinated, except for those whose parents can't or won't comply - in which case, see above.

It just wouldn't work.

I am quite torn about this but tend to agree with the ones who say that it will be dififcult to administer, easy to get round and simply wouldn't work. However, I'm not sure the alternative is working either regarding education and trying to steer people in the right direction.

Having one older child in the school system (14), one who's just started (5) and one who is about to start (nearly 4) I find it increasingly worrying that there are still people out there who are prepared to risk the health and well being of other children simply by doing nothing because they can't be arsed to find out the facts and make a decision for themselves - the same ones who listen to stooooopid radio presenters (that Jenni whatserface in particular) and simply nod in agreement and say "well, I heard on the radio that X" and do nothing. Not only are they jeopardising the health of their own children, which, after all, until the child becomes 16, is their perogative, they are jeopardising the health of others who will not be covered by the herd immunity, ie, the ones who genuinely cannot, for medical reasons have the vaccination and rely on responsible parents immunising their children.

My youngest had his 2nd MMR yesterday in fact without a second thought from me or his father. For us, its a complete no-brainer. I'm quite happy to punch educate other parents for the sake of the nation ?

And where do people think we'd be without compulsory smallpox vaccination now, for instance?

I also think that compulsory vaccination makes it safer for people who tend to slip through the net (ie people who have poor attendance at school etc) because the herd immunity will be that much higher.

I feel uneasy about it being made compulsory (and fwiw I don't envisage it ever happening) BUT is there any evidence that the 'hearts and minds' approach works?

Even if Drs and HVs are 'trained to listen to parents' concerns and respond' - which many excellent heathcare staff are already doing - is there any evidence that this changes minds?

The few anti-vax loonies I've had the pleasure of meeting IRL do not seem to respond to quiet reasoned scientific discussion.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't work if it works in other countries? And has done so for quite some time (I'm err.....nearly 35, had the jabs before I was 5, so that's at least 30 years in the US).

I don't believe it should be compulsory - mainly becuase I don't believe a child should ever be made to suffer for their parents actions and by denying them schooling is hurting the child and not the parent.

AFAIK and I stand to be corrected, parents still have a responsibility to educate their children, and could freely choose to homeschool them or send them to a private school which allows unvaccinated children to attend if they don't want to vaccinate.

Personally, I'm all for children being protected from suffering as a result of their parent's refusal to vaccinate.

But it does work in other countries, I think? And we had compulsory vaccinations for small pox in this country a very long time ago.

I hate the idea of compulsory anything on medical treatmet, I really do, it makes my heart sink, and I take note of everything written on this thread, especially Hazel's comments on science and the public, and what you say on the tin foil hat brigaid.

BUT I have lost patience with the whole subject of MMR - there are too many parents/grandparents/friends etc out there who listen to all the arguments, listen to all the evidence, agree that there's nothing to say it's not safe but still say no. How on earth do we get around people who agree the evidence says one thing but listen to their stomachs which say another?

Or those who believe that homeopathy is just as good, despite no evidence showing any efficacy against MMR? Or parents who think that three diseases in one is just "too much" but don't hesitate to take the other pre-school jabs which have more than three vaccinations and don't appreciate that the human body deals with many many more pathogens every day? I've argued with these people umpteen times here and elsewhere and they don't care that their arguments are flawed or their facts skewed, and sometimes they just prefer a good scare story.

I think the govt needs to take a more personal stand on MMR education - posters and leaflets raise awareness but I've seen plenty of people on BT, for example, who've had doubts until they've had a discussion and been shown some information that reassures them. The HV/GP system is the obvious place to start an intimiate campaign - or at least it would be if we a) didn't have a national shortage of both and b) didn't have a fair percentage of HVs who are such utter ninnies that their parents and children don't listen to a word they say ?

It would also help if the govt insisted that GPs orHVs sent out reminders for vaccinations - too many mums miss vaccinations out because they are busy and forget to book them. Compulsory vaccinations would help with this too.

I don't think we're quite at the stage where compulsory vaccination is necessary and I think the govt could raise vaccination coverage by more targeted campaigning but my fear is that we're already at risk of a measles epidemic, we could have 1000s of children killed or maimed for no good reason and one of those children could be my son or my son's friends.

Compulsory vaccination (unless sound medical reason) for state school is a solution we might end up having to do if the increase in MMR in our community continues.It would be easy to implement - take children to school and show red book or have them vaccinated on the spot. And it would work because very few independent schools are going to be willing to take on large numbers of unvaccinated children and risk a major outbreak. Yes, there will be home schooled children who won't be vaccinated but that's up to their parents, I guess and they won't be putting a whole school at risk.

Fundamentally, what really irks me, is that the only reason people who don't vaccinate have healthy children is because the majority of parents have vaccinated - some of those children can't be vaccinated, they are relying on us doing the right thing, and now that the majority of vaccinators isn't big enough, all of our children are at risk of avoidable diseases. It makes me so angry that yes, I might just have to throw my liberal views out the window on this issue.

I'm not convinced making it compulsory will work, but I do wish more people would be better informed to do it through choice.

I think people need to be made aware of the fact of not-vaccinating your child does not make you just accountable for your child getting ill, but more the issue of herd-immunity and the impact a non-vac decision will have on the wider community.

I use a US forum where there is a huge anti-vac brigade and it makes my skin crawl. I know there vax will be different but still, its annoying.

I'm really torn on this issue and didn't think I would be.

I think the key for me is that parents who choose not to vaccinate are making a decision that potentially doesn't only affect their child but other children too.

I'm going to say no, partly for the same reasons as PL but also as I wouldn't like the precedent it would set- if, for example there was a compulsary jab that was, in certain studies, being shown to be harmful we'd absolutley be up in arms at the idea we can't opt out.

I'm not referring to MMR or the associated studies, just to be clear.

It's not setting a precedent though is it? We've had compulsory vaccination in this country before.

If there was a vax with studies showing it caused harm then there is no way it could be made compulsory.

Not sure what you mean. By precendent I mean that if you start making immunisation compulsary, it could lead to other healthcare being made compulsary. I don't think thats too far out a point?

Whatever you do, don;t read the BBC HYS about this issue. I realise I should have known before opening it, but my god the idiotic, ignorant and down right stupid ideas some people have!

I think it's a sensible idea. If you want to travel abroad there are compulsory vacinations, why not if you want to go to school.

I caught measles when I was three months old and because of that I'm completely deaf in one ear.

I was assuming that the comments would be a thing to behold ?

I have to admit I didn't realise that smallpox vaccination had been compulsory. But I think things have changed since the 1850s, and I still think that making it compulsory could well end up being counterproductive.

I'm off to read HYS now. Against my better judgement.

Kitty, I think it is a quite different since entering a particular country isn't a basic right whereas I think free education is a basic right, and not all parents are in the position to homeschool or pay for private education. (Actually it's generally if you're entering from sub-Saharan African countries that vaccinations become compulsory rather than simply recommended).

I also think that whether it 's right to say it "works" in certain countries depends on what that means - it might well work in terms of increasing herd immunity and take-up of vaccinations but that leaves open the possibility that the state interferes with individual freedom and autonomy to an unacceptable extent. I'm not saying that's the case, but there's more to a system "working" than the pure epidemiological aspect. I think PL makes a very good point about it being precisely those children who need to be kept on the radar falling off it if there were no access to state schools for unvaccinated children.

One thing that frequently strikes me when reading about countries like Germany (just an example and I'm sure much of this is common to most of mainland Europe) is that if children fall off the radar, they tend to fall right off it with some really appalling consequences. The sphere within which the state can't interfere is much smaller there, so opting out of e.g. vaccinating or of conventional schooling (homeschooling is illegal) means essentially going underground and cutting off all contact between children and officialdom - to my mind a very undesirable situation.

I think the experience of these countries shows that just because something is unquestionably hugely desirable for individual and for public good and also protects many people doesn't provide enough reason to enforce it. There's very clearly a trade-off with individual autonomy here and I'm not sure that the effects of a lower uptake merit sacrificing so much of that (difficult though that is to say when one hears of people being seriously harmed by these diseases).

I would be quite happy for there to be tax breaks for vaccinating your child, or even straightforward cash handouts.

You know - probably more simplistic - but we do still have compulsory vaccinations. For example you want to travel to certain places, you have to have the vaccine.