MMR / Jeni Barnett / Ben Goldacre

I presume from this that you've already tried ?

I have only skim read alot of this...but I will say one thing I picked up on was the single jabs.

Due to my mum's disability I was not allowed to have the mumps or whooping cough jabs (this was a long time ago before the MMR came in, 1970's). I have also been told that there is a risk that my child could have something go wrong if they have the mumps or whooping cough jabs if we decided to have children/vacccinate. So no MMR for us, only single jabs.

Now I am pro vaccinating, but there have been cases where there is a valid medical reason why someone cannot be given the MMR. I don't personally agree with the anti camp and I think that there are some very uneducated people out there and that is a shame. Especially as they are putting other children at risk/not thinking about how serious these illnesses are.

I think there is an army of information out there on this subject, I think there needs to be more support to show people the pros of this. I am not saying there isn't this already there, perhaps there just needs to be more of this. I know my mum was specifically told (as was I) not to have these jabs and the serious risks that could happen if we did.

Although I know it was mentioned that the single jabs weren't as effective, isn't this better than no jab at all?

Kazmerelda I don't think that anyone would ever argue that parents should vaccinate against medical advice. Of course if you can't have one component of the MMR then you should have the single jabs (though if they're not licensed will you be able to do that on the NHS?)

For normal, healthy people single jabs are better than none at all in terms of immunity but they do have other significant risks so I really don't think they should be something that the NHS either offers or supports. Imagine the outcry if children started dying from meningitis as a result of the mumps jab.

I think that most of the leaflets on vaccination/MMR I've seen talk a lot about the benefits - but do you mean the benefits of MMR versus singles? Even then, the MMR the Facts leaflets does talk about how MMR protects your child quicker and more effectively. If people don't want to take that on board, it's hard to work out how else to say it.

This just out on wakefield

Fark me. I never thought he would have faked results. I knew he had hyperbolised but faking is just incredible, That is the absolute biggest crime you can commit in science - totally unforgiveable. It's hard to underestimate how big this is in science terms.

(if it were just hte Sunday Times I wouldn't believe it necessarily but they claim the GMC say the same)

Still, it just confirms exactly how much of an arse the guy is. I really wish I thought this would make the sceptics reconsider but sadly I doubt it.

Farking hell, I'm speechless...

I'm not at all suprised tbh. He broke just about every rule of research.

But this second part was my first thought - you'd think this would bury it once and for all, but I imagine that according to the nay-sayers, the GMC are also 'involved in the conspiracy'.

The thing is he'd had a relatively respectable research career before MMR-gate. I thought he might have had the odd scruple somewhere (when not paying his kids friends to be test subjects obviously), but clearly not..

However, this may actually be useful in the war against the nay-sayers. A discredited paper is one thing, along with massive studies which disprove it, but fiddle results - whole new ball game i reckon.

though, for the harm he's done i reckon they should take him to porton down and experiment with some small-pox.

I very much hope so Flowery.

Presumably without vaccinating him with cowpox, in case he develops some spurious illness?

Me please, me please!

Shame I don't have any contacts/access there anymore. ?

I'm not sure what will happen with the GMC hearing. At the moment he's up on ethical charges. I'm not sure if they will take this into account too, or if a whole separate hearing will be held.

I'd be very surprised if he's not struck off (unless he has been already?). Mind you, he's practicing and researching in the States now so I'm not sure that what the GMC does will affect him that much.

Oh. My. God. [speechless]

I actually think the news that he fiddled the results won't make a jot of difference to some. Unsurprisingly, in the home ed. community there are quite a few vitriolic anti-immunisers - generally the kind of family who are proud of not being in the system at all, ie not registered to vote, not registered with GP, children unknown to health/education services. I wonder if they pay tax? [muses] Anyway, I can guarantee this will be taken as more "evidence" of the huge conspiracy on the part of the Government, Western Medicine and lord knows who else to control us. [puts on tinfoil hat]

Just read this thread - all very interesting and some excellent points.

I'm curious though as many posters seem to be focusing on the awkward squad, but to me it seems to be a bit of a straw man argument.

I don't in all honesty think many parents at all really now still believe the findings from the Wakefield report – certainly not every parent of every child who is yet to have the full MMR vaccination.

Anecdotal evidence admittedly, but a few years back (incidentally when I was living in the south east of England) I knew of only one parent who was very anti-MMR and who sent me the most obnoxious round-robin email, signed off with 'Know what you're putting into your little darlings,' as if those on the circulation list hadn't give it a thought before she sent her email.

She was the only one among 20 or so sets of parents – apart from one other who decided on single jabs rather than none at all (despite being single income and pretty much on the breadline) because of autism being in the family – whose child did not have the MMR.

Now, one child later and a few years down the line (and half the country away), every child I know has had it done and it's simply not even a topic of conversation any more. It's a done deal that a child is immunised.

As I said on an earlier thread on BT, the real issue for many parents is one of juggling many obstacles (time versus appointment availability, state of child's health) rather than any drive to be different. With the guidelines/schedules for childhood vaccinations changing frequently and many PCTs not sending information/reminders, let alone any new comms campaign, then obviously that's going to affect take-up rates, not least because the goalposts are continually moving.

Added to this the greater population mobility, then well, yes, it's an epidemic waiting to happen. For me that's the real issue.

As for the wanting to be different arguments/humanities degree/distrust of medical profession, well, that's pretty patronising actually. If such views and lack of respect for the general public is widespread among the medical profession/scientific community that perhaps explains why scientists sometimes have a difficulty communicating their studies and making their case to the general public? (Not even going to go in Wakefield here as it’s already all been said.)

Sure, media reporting has a lot to answer for, but I don't really think the public are as stupid as some would like to believe.

It's interesting you say that. there is a lot of talk about measles and the MMR in Switzerland as well at the moment. In one canton, where about 93% of children are vaccinated, in one school less than a 1/3 are. And it's a Steiner school, so definitely towards the "alternative" end of the education spectrum...

Rufus I know people who won't give MMR. I know other people who won't give any vaccinations. Stepping aside from personal knowledge, it only takes a look at MMR uptake rates to see that there are quite a lot of people not giving it anymore and I really don't think that can all be blamed on PCTs/uncooperative GPs surgeries. I get vaccine reminders and I can get an appointment pretty much any time.

Have you ever looked at the stuff that the anti-vaccination sites spout? Have a read of some antivaccination forums - they're pretty eyewatering. That is not about parents not being able to make appointments.

I have said several times that I think that despite all the evidence that it's safe, many parents have a lingering doubt about MMR and hte only way to deal with that is to engage. It is important to think about why people don't do it and the discussions aren't about being patronising.

I've just found out my sister has not had yer youngest child vaccinated yet - he's 18 months. It's because he's "scared of the doctor's". I don't know what to think. She doesn't believe the MMR-Wakefield tripe though, despite having her eldest son with an Autistic Spectrum Disorder (Asperger's Syndrome). The evidence, was there well before any MMR vaccine was given to him.

Interesting points. But surely getting your kid immunised should be something prioritised? I know it's busy being a parent, but I find it difficult to believe that 50% of parents in London haven't had their child immunised just because it was too difficult to get an appointment. It also deosn't explain the difference in take-up between the MMR and other childhood vaccinations.

Did you hear the Jeni Barnett programme? I'd dearly love if everyone was as sensible as you seem to be, but a quick look at several parenting sites, and a scan of the newspapers indicates to me that this just isn't the case.

My experience of distrust of medical professionals comes from parents (both in social situations and at work) simply saying 'well you would say that', whenever I attempt to talk to them about the facts behind the story. That's just my experience, and obviously I can't say if it's representative, but I think it's naive to say there hasn't been a shift away from trust in medical professionals on a wider scale.

I think the very marked decreased in MMR uptake since the wakefiled paper is a pretty strong indicator as to why the vaccination rates are so low. Parents seem to manage just fine to juggle things to get their child vaccinated before hand.

Did anyone here the BBC R4 programme street science about MMR last December? http://www.bbc.co.uk//radio4/science/streetscience.shtml

The opinions of the parents they talked to are interesting.

Hazel: Sure, I've seen some of the anti-MMR sites (quoted and linked to in the email I referred to in my post). And yes, they beggared belief, not only in tone but also in content. they did nothing to persuade me and made me very cross indeed.

I think for any issue there is always going to be a hardcore of people who will go against the grain, but my point about uncooperative GP surgeries etc was that if you can reach parents who have found it difficult to vaccinate for one reason or another, that is going to go a long way to raising immunisation levels. (Flowery: If I'm not mistaken, there are now more vaccinations than ever before, exacerbating what can be an already difficult task. Not to mention rising female participation in the labour market.) Seems like a quick win that is being overlooked IMO.

R-A: Yes, of course, immunising your child is the responsible thing to do. Goes without saying. I'm just explaining how difficult that can be in reality. I'm also sure that measles, mumps etc being considered a thing of the past does lull people into a false sense of security, so time isn't necessarily seen as the essence. I think Hazel mentioned interesting research on the psychology of risk that may be relevant here. I'd really like to think that if all PCTs had a campaign that included the facts about the Wakefield report and some of the figs/research available, together with more flexible clinics, then uptake levels would rise significantly. As for declining trust levels, that is true across all professions in the data that I have seen (judges, the police, MPs, I will try and dig it out), possibly for the reasons given earlier in this thread. Doesn't make it right, but shows that there is lots of work to be done rebuilding trust.

I wish I thought that would do it. There are already pretty hefty NHS campaigns on immunisation and on MMR in particular. All the MMR info has really clear explanations about the whole Wafefield saga. All that is coming from the established health profession though so I don't know if it helps. I'm not sure what else they can do - TV campaign maybe? More significantly though, it's been proven fairly conclusively in other areas of science communications that the deficit model ("if people only knew the facts they would do X") doesn't work. People don't want to be educated!

I really don't know how much of an issue flexibility for clinics is. As I said, I know I can get appointments on any week day, early mornigns, late evenings and I think now on saturdays as well. I know this is the way that surgeries are going but I'd be interested to see what other people's places are like. I know Zebedee had massive problems - they woudl only do Monday afternoons I think - but the responses to that did suggest that this was rare. I do think that it's sometimes used as an excuse though (obv am not saying this was the case for Zebedee or everyone).

Again, I can only speak from my experience, but I've seen nothing around MMR in the three hospitals (one in Wales and two in the Midlands) and four clinics I've been in with D this past year, nor anything in my Dr's surgery or from my HV. I've also been in Sure Start centres a lot and I've noticed nothing in there either. Perhaps a TV campaign would have more impact? So if there is a campaign, it certainly isn't working.

If the PCT was regarding it as a high priority as perhaps they should, there has been ample opportunity to get us there and then on the spot when we've been at clinics. NHS managers and health professionals could do more, as well as parents.

Also as I said on the BT thread, I've tried on a number of occasions to get D in to have her MMR immunisation, including requesting a different practice and also one more convenient for work, but in a different PCT. Unfortunately, my surgery isn't one that is open on a Saturday or in the evenings. (GP surgeries round here are notorious for it being difficult to get appointments. Lucky for those who are more fortunate.)

I'm repeating myself now so I'm going to shuffle off...

I'm not saying I don't believe you btw just that it's not that way for me ?

I would definitely suggest complaining to surgery/PCT/MP and anyone else who would listen. You're right that if they want people vaccinated they need to make it easy to do so! And ask them about a campaign. Ask them why they're not doing more. It could be that you're in an area with relatively high uptake - I saw some stats on this a while ago which showed the uptake in different areas of the country. London was worse, some areas were actually around 90-95%, so it might be that you're in one of those.

It's pretty clear from reading on here that ability to get a GP appointment for any reason varies quite widely across the country and that some surgeries are more flexible than others.

But how many times do you hear of parents completely unable to take time off for a holiday? Or to go Xmas shopping? Or for a wedding?

If I needed to do so, I'd take holiday for vaccination in a shot - I already have to take days off each year for my son's eye hospital appointments because the clinic is run one day a week and we get our appointment months in advance.

And if I absolutely couldn't get an appointment because the surgery was repeatedly I'd be on the phone to the local NHS management and demanding that someone get one sorted out...

It is very inflexible where we are. A is 20 months and STILL hasn't had her MMR. I hadn't received an appointment by 14 months so telephoned the GP, who passed me on to the HV, who rang the 'central computer' and was told that she was on the waiting list and that an appointment would be sent. I rang again at 15 months, she was still on the list, an appointment would be sent. At 16 months I rang and asked for the GP to give it to her without the appointment from the 'central computer' but was was refused, an appointment was on its way........... At 17 months (before Christmas) I marched down there and insisted, they gave me the next available appointment - 19th Feb (there is only one clinic a week, with only a two hour slot). I have no idea what the uptake rate is in my area, but I do know that there has been a measles outbreak. Frankly I am not surprised.

Spyns that's appalling, I would be writing to PCT, Dept of Health, MP and anyone else who would listen

Quite a lot actually. (Not to mention paternity leave being cancelled and maternity leave troubles, see BT this week.) I've been refused holiday before and never asked for time off to go Christmas shopping. (Why should I? I have weekends/the internet? And shopping is not at all the same as children's medical appointments.)

It's tough being a working parent. And when you need a lot of time off - as I do, and your child is frequently unwell, as mine are (one also with eye troubles, the other with ongoing immunity issues/excema/asthma/allergies sometimes requiring hospitalisation/emergency appointments and then recovery time), well, it's not an ideal world and something has to give. Just to reiterate, my children have had the MMR, but it has been difficult to do so.

As for raising it with the local PCT, yes, that's not a bad idea. I'm already on a patients' panel (for what this is worth) and have been in contact with NICE about clarification on another matter. To be fair, this issue only reared its head for me this week thanks in part to the measles reporting and these threads in Hitched.

Again, I'm repeating myself.