Tobin guilty of Vicky Hamilton murder.

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Didn't. He already exists.

I thought barristers were supposed to be keen on linguistic precision?

Doesn't is a perfectly appropriate use of language when talking about a young child who is yet to develop!

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I don't think either of those things are clear from Roobarb's posts actually.

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well i think you're reading a different post to me. i read that she just said it was a shame that the victims have to have such an awful time in court. i don't read anywhere her saying noone has the right to a fair trial.

and i'm buggered if i know what someone taking a pregnancy test has to do with anything either. unless they're suggesting the accused had something to do with the pregnancy scare...

are you a criminal defence lawyer? genuine question, honestly not picking a fight or having a go, but how can you do it? i mean when you have someone truely awful where every instinct is telling you they're lying...how can you bring yourself to be civil to them?

In what way does this equate to claiming that "Tobin shouldn't get a fair trial simply because of what he did"?

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? "Barrister", I'm not entirely sure what your problem is with me, but give it up, you're doing nothing but make yourself look like even more of a total and utter arsehole than you already are.

Just because one is a member of a profession, it doesn't mean that one cannot see faults and flaws with other members of the profession.

Not to mention

I reckon that would have been why he was tried in Dundee rather than in either Glasgow or Edinburgh though - in Glasgow I would guss most people would have made the connection with the AK murder, and Edinburgh's a bit close to where she went missing so a risk perhaps of a local being picked for the jury. I think all parties have been as careful as they could possibly have been.

which seems to be fairly good evidence that Roobarb has considered the importance of a fair trial.

All I see here, actually, is someone trying to "blacken the character" of someone else just for the sake of it, and not doing it particularly sensitively in calling her "narrow minded" and questioning her competence (among other things) as well as bringing her child into it. I think "Barrister" should perhaps reconsider his or her profession, because based on the evidence here, he or she doesn't have the skills which are supposedly necessary.

Because it's not for me to decide that someone is guilty or has done something so dreadful that they shouldn't be defended. That's how our system works, it's a jury who decides and rightly so.

Imagine if like Sally Clarke you were charged with killing your baby and I decided that you were guilty and acted accordingly. It's not for me to judge and I really try not to. If I succesfully defend someone who is innocent then I have done my job properly. I am not allowed ( and neither is any other lawyer) to try and get a guilty person off. That is a common misconception.

I am genuinely not having a go at any of you. I just feel frustrated that Roobarb of all people didn't seem to understand that we aren't allowed to take pot-shots at victims without a legal basis for doing so. She must have known that when she commented about the Beggs case and the pregnancy test issue.

Guess I didn't realise how many people hated lawyers.

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Cry me a river.

Oh for crying out loud!!!!

I am not criticising everything she said. She made some valid points. It was just the pregnancy test issue.

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but what about people like, say, karen matthews, who's best defence they can come up with is 'it weren't me, if were 'im'? isn't it totally frustrating? wouldn't you just tell them to plead guilty? or aren't you allowed to do that, and have to keep up some sort of pretence of believing them?

i don't hate lawyers, but this does intrigue me. i'd find it very difficult.

and i still think you were very roooooood to roobarb, especially the crack about her baby btw.

Better hope you never need one.

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Do you know Roobarb IRL? I may be reading too much into this, but the attacks seem very personal.

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I didn't comment about the Beggs case at all.

And I certainly don't feel people hate me, I know for definite on here at least there are several other lawyers who are very highly thought of - maybe it's just you?

Oh lord roobs... Donald Findlay is a hitched troll!!! I think you've just found me the exclusive that'll make my career ?

.. and for the record, both of the mini roobarbs have indeed inherited much from their mother and are lovely, intelligent individuals.. so ner to Barrister ?

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Did you google yourself, is that how you found this thread? Naughty Barrister...

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Incidentally, has any barrister ever finished his/her summing up with the words "so ner on you, your honour"?

Or at least been tempted?

Well I didn't mean to be rude and I am sorry if that's how it appeared. I just get very frustrated that a job I love and think is actually worthwhile seems to attract so much negative opinion.

At a talk I was at a while ago, it was clear that the majority of the public don't understand how we work. Probably because no-one tells them.

And yes, we do sometimes point out to a client the overwhelming nature of the evidence against them but you can't make someone plead.

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You didn't mean to be rude when you said:

'Hope he doesn't inherit your narrow minded intellect.'?

Good grief.

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OK, so you called me ignorant, narrow minded, hinted that I was not a competent member of my profession, brought my one month old baby into it, and worst of all called me a Daily Mail reader, and that's you "not meaning to be rude".

Hell, I'd hate to know what you were like when you were intending to be rude then.

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No it wasn't, because if that was all that you meant you wouldn't have talked about her 'clearly believing' Tobin didn't deserve a fair trial etc. Could you back pedal any harder?

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? That is by far the worst insult anyone could dish out.

And calling me an arsehole and telling me to piss right off isn't rude. Let me guess, you dind't start it.

I am genuinely sorry for the comment about your baby. I was angry, no excuse for it.

And FYI, I am not Donald Findlay and I don't know who you are.

Can we finally just put this to bed? I have been trying to make a point and it has become rather heated.

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I don't think Roobarb claimed she wasn't trying to be rude though. ?

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was that aimed at me? why? i thought i was asking a reasonably valid question. and i asked it politely...

and if you could explain the relevance of the pregnancy test thing, i'd be very interested. as i still can't see the value of it. unless it, say, provoked the murderer, or it was relevent to their relationship between them.

No it wasn't aimed at you.

I can't explain the preganancy test thing other than that the judge would have to allow that line of questioning and the Crown could object if it was gratuitous.

Hope that helps.

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No, it was rude, and it was intended to be after what you'd said about me.

As for the "apology" - save it.

And I hope you put your points across better in person in court for your clients than you have done on here.

ETA PMSL @ the thought of DF being a closet Hitcher ?

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well no not really ?

but anyway, i'm off to bed. work in the morning, criminals to bust and all that. need to keep you lawyer types in mansions and bentleys ?

Well thanks at least for listening to what I had to say. Don't expect anyone to agree but there you are.

It's been a lively debate